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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Soda Blasting

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tbosch
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163 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/04/2008 : 12:34:03

One of my many boat projects this summer was to strip off the old ablative bottom paint from my 1980 Cat 25. The paint was of the thick blue chalky variety. I took lots of pictures and will post some of those in a follow-up.

The really great things was that I was able to find a mobile service that came to the boat. This was a huge consideration for me. This guy does work in Wisconsin and Minnesota. He also said he was heading to a marina in Chicago to do a bunch of boats. It sounds like he would travel a fair distance if there were enough jobs lined up ahead of time to make it worthwhile.

The actual blasting process took 2 hours. This is about the amount of time I figure it would have taken me to sand the paint of the rudder.

Here is a link to the company that did the work for me. I would highly recommend this guy. That's my boat on the web site, by the way.

http://stripit.org/Home_Page.php

Todd
1980 C25 SR/FK "Dora"

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/04/2008 : 13:02:31

I did the same thing with my '82, it was wonderful.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2008 : 14:58:04

What did the job run you? I'd like to do this to my boat as well. I've even entertained thoughts of going into business doing this.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/04/2008 : 15:19:39

I paid $400, I would expect it to be higher in a state where they made you control the (catch) the runoff.

edit:
Also, another person at my club had the guy come out to do his Hunter 22 lead bilge. The hull went fine, when he started on the deck, (just to clean it well) they discovered the deck had no gelcoat, just paint over fiberglass. I don't know if this was a Hunter second or what. Point is that you will need to be bonded because of unforeseen events.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/04/2008 15:23:43

tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2008 : 15:48:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 What did the job run you? I'd like to do this to my boat as well. I've even entertained thoughts of going into business doing this.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I paid $500 and that included 3 hours or travel round trip.

You can see the guys equipment on his web site. It is basically an enormous diesel generator, a compressor, moisture filters, hoper and hoses. I think he said he had 20 or 30K invested. The equipment will spray a variety of media for various jobs. He mentioned corn cobs for stripping finish off of log homes, sand, soda, and crushed glass.

It did make a pretty big mess. If you were in a crowded boat yard I think you would have to tent your boat or you would have a lot of angry boat owners demanding that you wash down their boats, cars, pets...

Edited by - on

tbosch
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Response Posted - 11/06/2008 : 21:54:14

Here's a few pictures of the mobile soda blasting. You'll notice the "smile" and other areas of the keel that need work. That was another project...

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Kendall
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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2008 : 20:29:53

Looks Very Therapeutic, I bet Dora was pleased.
Was he able to do under the pads?

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John Russell
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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2008 : 22:03:49

There appears to be a lot of soda/ablative on the ground. What about the environmental impact? I don't think I'd want my kids walking around that ground afterward. Hell, I wouldn't want to spend much time raising that dust. Great way to clean the boat. Also looks like a great way to put a lot of toxic waste in the area.

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tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 14:53:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kendall
 ...Was he able to do under the pads?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was able to get under the pads but not without some planning. You will notice that under the bow I have a boat stand. I cranked the trailer jack up as high as it would go, put the stand under the bow and then lowered the jack. As I lowered the jack I would crank up the forward pads and the middle pads. The keel is now touching the trailer's keel pad at the rear and the front of the keel is a good inch above the pad. I supported it there with a wedge.

I did this because I wasn't able to lower the front pads enough to get at the hull. Now I can. I lowered one pad at a time ahead of the soda blaster. After he passed I cranked up that pad and lowered the next. This worked well. I hand sanded the area under the boat stand at the bow prior to placing it so I didn't have to worry about that when the blasting was being done.

Edited by - on

tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:11:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 There appears to be a lot of soda/ablative on the ground. What about the environmental impact? I don't think I'd want my kids walking around that ground afterward. Hell, I wouldn't want to spend much time raising that dust. Great way to clean the boat. Also looks like a great way to put a lot of toxic waste in the area.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No doubt about it. We put tarps down and he hauled away whatever was on them but a lot of it, maybe even most of it, was distributed around the area.

The dust that remained on the decks I swept up and threw away. For the area around the boat I used a leaf blower and blew what I could into the woods adjacent to the boat. The rest I watered into the ground. The boat is at the in-laws on 40 acres of woods. I wouldn't have been able to do this in a community. I did mention in one of my posts that you would be advised to tent your boat if it was in a marina. Maybe the advise should simply be "tent you boat to contain the material." Live and learn.

I did wear a high-quality canister dust mask and goggles when near the boat. And I only went near to move the pads. Otherwise I stayed at a distance.

I agree with the environmental concers. But how do you get away from it? When you sail it in the water the purpose of the material is to wear away into the environment. When you haul the boat it gets pressure washed and all that blue water runs down the drain and into the water. When sanding off the paint you can probably contain more of it but it still makes a lot of dust that distributes around the area. Using strippers would contain the paint but then you've got an unholy combination of chemicals that you are putting in the trash to end up who knows where. I guess that is why there are plans to outlaw some of the biocides used in these paints. It is a cop out but as soon as you crack open that can of paint you are commiting the contents to the environment one way or another.

So, I'm painting the bottom next spring. I sail in the cold fresh waters of Lake Superior for 6 months a year (if I'm lucky). I don't race and I don't haul out during the 6 months. What would be an effective and friendly option for new bottom paint?

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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3467 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 15:21:29

I have also been using a canister dust mask. I am finishing a stone patio located adjacent to my walkout basement patio door. I was checking out the dust masks at Lowes and Home Depot. The dust masks are not all created equal. For the very fine particulate, then you have to go with the higher cost canister dust masks.

I think back 30 years or so ago to the times when I would be sanding off the bottom paint wearing no dust mask - Just figuring the wind would blow the dust away from me. But a look at my bluish handkerchief would indicate that a mask should be worn at all times. I pay more attention to these issues now-a-days. What happened in the past, hope stays in the past.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/08/2008 15:22:36

John Russell
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Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 16:14:04

I agree, Todd, that the ablative is designed to erode into the water. The concern I'd have would be about the concentration levels. In the open water, they're pretty low as the erosion occurs.

Having said all that, I, too, have ablative paint applied by the PO. I'd opt for a hard paint like VC-17 if I were to re-finish the bottom. That may come in the next year or two. I'll likely use some kind of eco-friendly stripper to do the deed, though.

You're exactly right Larry. In years gone by we didn't worry about such things. I, too, have been exposed to a lot of things I now wish I wasn't. I was raised in an asbestos shingled house!!!!! We used to play with the fuzzy shingles. Who knew?????? I wonder if that or 20 years of cigarettes caused this cough? Live and learn.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 20:18:02

Here's another eco-friendly alternative! When I was looking for a boat last year up in the Dallas area there were quite a few boats in our size range that were kept on HydroHoists. I believe Derek Crawford keeps his boat on a HydroHoist up at Canyon Lake.

Although new ones are fairly expensive you can pick up used ones in good condition a couple of years old for probably half the price (maybe less) of a new one. Within two to four years the price can be offset by not having to do bottom jobs every year or two. It's a lot less work too.

Just a thought.

Edited by - GaryB on 11/08/2008 20:19:08

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 11/08/2008 : 20:30:00

For what it's worth, the soda used in soda blasting is pure baking soda and is not an environmental hazard. It is also nontoxic. It can be washed into the soil with water but it may raise the PH. It does cause asphalt driveways a problem. The paint it takes with it is another issue. Wet soda blasting will eliminate the dust and the runoff can be contained and filtered. The soda will dissolve leaving only the paint to be caught in the filter.

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2008 : 15:40:16

Todd,
Nice job cleaning off the old paint. With your boat repositioned properly on the trailer, would it be possible for you to measure the heights of the pads from the trailer frame to the bottom of each pad, on one side? I would be grateful. Thanks.

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tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/09/2008 : 18:14:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 ... would it be possible for you to measure the heights of the pads from the trailer frame to the bottom of each pad, on one side? I would be grateful. Thanks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I could do that but it won't be until spring. The boat is 2 hours away and I won't be returning it to its trailerable position until the paint job is done. Sorry.

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tbosch
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Response Posted - 11/09/2008 : 18:22:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell...I'd opt for a hard paint like VC-17 if I were to re-finish the bottom. That may come in the next year or two. I'll likely use some kind of eco-friendly stripper to do the deed, though. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

John,

I think the eco-friendly stipper is the right thing to do. I took the lazy route. Two hours to complete the job was too hard to pass up. The boat is 100 miles away and getting the job done in a day tipped the scales for me. If it were in the back yard and I could chip away at the job I might have gone with a different solution.

I'll look into VC-17. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 11/09/2008 : 19:58:20

If you are in fresh water or low fouling salt water then VC17M cannot be beat. It is easy to apply and gives a slick (fast) bottom. Our boat came with VC17M and I am really glad it did. I would not go back to ablatives.

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tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2008 : 11:36:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 ... Wet soda blasting will eliminate the dust and the runoff can be contained and filtered. The soda will dissolve leaving only the paint to be caught in the filter.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The guy I hired used a dry process. I didn't know that there was a wet option. In Frank's pictures the ground is wet under the boat. Was that because he used a wet soda blasting process? That would certainly be better for containment and keep the mess from affecting neighbors.

I don't understand how a wet process would work. It seems like the soda would loose its abrasive properties when wet.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/10/2008 : 13:50:39

Yes, mine was wet and I can't imagine anything working better... it was like magic as it was.

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Ed Cassidy
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365 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2008 : 15:53:06

From Wiki;
The blasting material consist of formulated sodium bicarbonate (also known as baking soda). Blasting soda is an extremely friable material that has micro fragmentation on impact, literally exploding away surface materials without damage to the substrate.
The baking soda has no abrasive quality.

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tattwd
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Response Posted - 11/10/2008 : 21:06:31

Eco-Friendly strippers? what do you think baking soda is? Why do you think it was the method used for cleaning the statue of Liberty in the '90's? The soda is 100% bio-degrableable and 100% water soluble and is the preferred method of cleaning anytime environmental impact concerns play a role. Wet blasting with soda is effective however you lose 25% efficiency when adding water. I would guess this guy removed most of the ablatives off the site along with whatever soda was on the tarps. In fact I don't see any blue on the ground under or around the boat, tbosch?

Edited by - tattwd on 11/10/2008 21:26:30

tbosch
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Response Posted - 11/11/2008 : 10:01:13

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tattwd
 ...I don't see any blue on the ground under or around the boat, tbosch?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most of the material was on the tarps. There wasn't a lot on the ground but there was definitely a light blue dust around the area. The leaves on the surrounding trees also got a dusting that was noticeable. When he was dialing in the pressure before getting started he could make the leaves at the tops of the trees move around quite a bit and there was quite a dust could around the boat during the process. I was very glad that the winds weren't blowing towards the inlaws house!

If you employed this dry method at a crowded marina you would end up with a lot of angry people near by. Even Frank's photos of the wet method show a blue tinge extending around the boat some distance. From those photos I would say that the impact to surrounding property is less with the wet method but the concentrations of removed material are greater underneath. We were able to haul away a lot of the removed material. It looks like using the wet method creats a bigger concentration in a smaller area. Unless, of course, you do something to collect the run-off.

There was actually a lot of material that ended up on top of my boat. Here is a hot tip, clean that up right away! I didn't think of it until the next morning when I went up top. The morning dew was enough to turn the whole mess into a crust that took some effort to get rid of.

I don't think anyone is saying that the soda is a non-friendly material. It is the soda mixed with bottom paint that is the problem. You end up with what looks like light blue baby powder everywhere.

Edited by - on

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