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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swollen Keel

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Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/13/2008 : 01:35:03

Hello all, I'm new here and will "hopefully" be buying my first Catalina this weekend a 82' 25' swing keel. The price is very very good, but while I was looking at the boat in the slip last weekend one of the people that keep their boat down a couple of slips said that they were looking at this boat as well but that the keel was swollen.
Have any of you ever heard of this as a problem for this boat?
Also I will be looking this boat over in detail this Saturday before buying it, is there anything that I should be looking for in particular with this year and model?

I'd appreciate any advice or information you can impart to a new Catalina owner.

Some mistakes are just too fun to only do once.
1982 C25 #3276
Owl Harbor
Isleton, CA

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 07:38:50

The bottom of the keel is supposed to be larger than the top, putting more weight deeper. It's 1500 lbs of cast iron, so I doubt that it will "swell." Check the thread on soda blasting in the general sailing forum. It has several pics of a swing keel. You'll see that it flairs out at the bottom. If that's not what they were talking about, then it may just have a bad blister problem, which is fixable.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/13/2008 07:39:57

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 08:33:24

Welcome Orrin! Get ready for my standard commercial...

Make your purchase contingent on the results of a professional survey, and then get one. It's the best $350 you'll spend on the boat, for several reasons:
1. It will potentially prevent you from buying a boat with hidden problems (such as a "swollen keel") that could require more to fix than the boat will ever be worth. (...in which case you just walk away.)
2. It will give you a prioritized list of things to attend to--some important, and others just desirable.
3. It could give you some items that will allow you to negotiate the price down a little, per the purchase agreement.
4. Some insurers won't cover a boat over 10 years old without a recent survey, so you might as well have the survey work for you, too.

If your seller won't agree, walk away. There are a number of potential issues related to #1 above that you are unlikely to be able to detect. When you do get the survey, be present with a clipboard and ask lots of questions. Every marine surveyor I've known about welcomes that.

BTW, that keel might be rusty, and is indeed bulbous looking, but that's how it is. The surveyor will give you the straight story there.

You can find an accredited surveyor at http://www.marinesurvey.org/ .

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/13/2008 08:36:06

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 08:37:52

In the earlier years, fin keel Catalina 25s had a cast iron keel, and in the later years they had a lead keel that was encased in fiberglass. I don't remember exactly when they changed from one to the other, but my best recollection is that it was sometime between 1982 and 1984.

The cast iron keel was a fairly crude casting, and it was coated with tar and then faired with just enough epoxy compound to make it reasonably smooth. The cast iron keel was rugged, and there wasn't much that could hurt it. It needed maintenance, because sometimes it rusted and sometimes the fairing compound blistered and fell off, but it was repairable. I only remember ever hearing of one iron keel boat who's keel deteriorated so severely as to require replacement.

The lead keel boat had a much smoother surface, because the fiberglass casing made it so. The major drawback to an encased lead keel is that, if the fiberglass casing becomes damaged from a hard grounding, and if it is left in the water without repair until water migrates into the casing, then the water will freeze and do further damage to the fiberglass casing, and, if neglected long enough it might be unrepairable, and require replacement.

I'd suggest you first find out for sure if it's iron or lead by holding a strong magnet against it.

If it's iron, any deterioration can probably be repaired, especially if you're willing to do the work yourself. Fiberglass is easy to work with, if you're a little handy.

If it's fiberglass encased lead, and shows severe damage, I'd ping all over it with a hammer and listen for a dead, hollow or crackling sound, and feel for excess springiness in the fiberglass. If you don't know what it should sound or feel like, that might not help much, and you might want to have it surveyed or at least examined by a marine repair specialist.

I wouldn't treat the neighboring sailor's warning too lightly, because he might be trying to help you. However, he also might want to buy the boat himself and is trying to drive you away. The only thing you can do is check it out thoroughly. It might be a good deal, or it might be a disaster.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 09:25:53

I would also like to add to the above advice. If the winch for the keel has ever malfunctioned in the past, it could allow the 1500 lb keel to swing like a pendulum. The out come of this is, it will crash into the forward end of the trunk. In some cases this may only stress the hull, in other cases it will do extensive damage. I speak from experience, after owning our 25 for two weeks this happened, and we were taking on water. To keep this reply short, we repaired our craft and she has handled flawlessly for (I think)the 18 years we have sailed her. Look for any stress cracks in the area of the trunk, and get that survey

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 09:27:34

All 25 swingers are cast iron, there can be some swelling from corrosion but it will be confined to the surface and can be knocked off. Note the bulging profile as you look lower on this keel.

It is not evident from the side.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 09:51:36

No EPA in Kansas, huh Frank?

Steve is right, but he's talking about the fixed (fin) keel. (I believe the change to lead was around 1984.) All swingers are cast iron, and virtually all have some rust and pitting, but lots of iron still there. The cable should be replaced every few years ("few" being a variable based on salt water versus fresh, and trailer versus moored).

BTW, Orrin... Are you planning to trailer the boat and/or store it on a trailer?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 11:02:57

Oops! I missed the fact that it's a swing keel, but that means that it is a cast iron keel, and not as likely to have a serious problem. A surveyor is highly recommended before any boat is purchased. If you don't use a surveyor, you should still lightly "ping" every inch of the keel with a hammer. Being cast iron, it should ring like a bell. If it has a dull sound, it's probably just the fairing compound coming loose, which is repairable by a handyman. The most important part of the swing keel itself is where the pin attaches it to the hull. You want good, solid iron all around that pin.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2008 : 14:26:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 No EPA in Kansas, huh Frank?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ever since we passed that there "con-ceeled carry" law them federal people ain't been around much.

Edited by - on

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2008 : 23:39:42

Well i did it, the boat was too good of a deal to pass up. Overall condition is very good, the keel seems to work flawlessly, the standing rigging is in great shape, the sails are still crinkly. I coughed up the $700.00 for the boat and signed the paperwork for the slip, hooked up my outboard from my other boat some friends and I went looking for the wind. Well we didn't find much but it gave us a chance to start cleaning all of the dust off of the boat and give it a thorough going over. All in all the boat is in very good condition, the guy I bought the boat from was the original owner, the title is dated 6/22/82
I'm sure I will be posting a lot more here with questions over the winter getting her ready for next summer.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 05:18:13

7 hundred or 7 thousand?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 07:35:09

Sounds sweet. Let's see some pictures, please.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/16/2008 07:35:40

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 08:28:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Deltarat
 I coughed up the $700.00 for the boat and signed the paperwork for the slip...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're kidding.

...and the slip is three times as much as the boat...

Well, welcome! Join up and jump right it!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 21:54:27

Wow! I thought 7 thousand for a decent boat and trailer was a pretty reasonable deal. On top of that, I spent 2500 this year having the trailer refurbished,sand blasted, and painted.

ps: I don't recommend having a beautiful, sparkling paint job on the trailer before the hull is finished - makes Pearl look a little older

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/16/2008 21:58:54

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 22:48:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 7 hundred or 7 thousand?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nope 700.00 and the slip is about 112.00 per month, now of course I have to find a decent sized outboard, but I have a line on a 9 horse honda 4 stroke for $600.00 and a customer of mine's father has a trailer for a 26' balboa that he no longer owns that I may be able to pick up for about $800.00

Of course when I took the admiral down this afternoon to get her approval and hooked a new battery up, then flipped the toggle switches for the running lights the switches actually fell apart. So I will be ordering about 6 new toggle switches at around $5 each. If only all of my repairs are going to be this cheap.

Edited by - on

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 22:52:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Sounds sweet. Let's see some pictures, please.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have most of the pictures on my facebook, here is the link to the album
http://www.new.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2007997&l=e35c2&id=1443431854

Edited by - on

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2008 : 22:56:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Wow! I thought 7 thousand for a decent boat and trailer was a pretty reasonable deal. On top of that, I spent 2500 this year having the trailer refurbished,sand blasted, and painted.

ps: I don't recommend having a beautiful, sparkling paint job on the trailer before the hull is finished - makes Pearl look a little older

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the tip

I doubt if I will be doing much of that right now, it's mostly boating on a budget. I'm a small general contractor and right now the market here in California is really tough. Not a lot of discretionary cash for frivolous items like paint, I will have to be happy with grabbing the old buffing wheel and going at it with some rubbing compound and a lot of elbow grease.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 13:04:13

The truth is, our boats are simply plastic buckets with an aluminum stick. They really don't require a lot of "pretty" to work just fine. Spend your money on those things that will keep you safe on the water. I'd have a long hard look at the swing keel mechanism before I spent a dime on anything else. A failure there can be truly catastrophic. Next would be the standing rigging. Follow that with a look at the running rigging and sails.

Congratulations on your new boat. Take advantage of the knowledge on this forum. Spend $22 on membership and you'll get a nifty little sticker to decorate your new boat!!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2008 : 15:38:46

Shoot, after paying only $700 for the boat, you could replace the entire keel, cable, and winch and still come out way ahead of most of us. BTW, I glanced at your pics. Boat looks pretty good and it appears that you got one heck or a good deal. But I agree, look closely at the winch, keel cable, and fittings connecting the cable to the keel and replace anything worn or suspicious. If that cable separates from the keel while it is up, your new purchase will probably sink. Until you can make the inspection, keep the keel in the down position with just a slight amount of tension on the cable. When we bought our 84 boat, all of that stuff looked real good so we didn't have to replace any of it.

Edit: Unless you dock in very shallow water, I suggest leaving the keel down all the time anyway. That's what I do.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/19/2008 08:21:12

Deltarat
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 11/18/2008 : 22:26:21

Took a serious look at the cable raising and lowering the keel, no frayed strands or suspicious looking sections but I am working on arrangements to get it on a trailer, and will probably just replace the cable, as a maintenance item. The previous owner say's it has been about 4 years since the last haul out, and bottom paint.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 11/19/2008 : 16:12:07

Now that you got a "great deal" on your boat, why don't you call a marine surveyor and find out whether it really is a great deal? He'll tell you about things you would take years to find, and you will know how to prioritize your maintenance and repairs, and be able to sail safely in the meantime.

Welcome to the Forum.

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 11/26/2008 : 19:52:48

SCHWEET

Nice bottom pics! I need scrape & hone the keel!

Edited by - KiteKraemer on 11/26/2008 19:54:57

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