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Glue To Rudder - What Kind?

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Old Disco Queen
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/08/2008 : 17:53:09

Hey fellas,

I need to "glue" a "very, very" small split in the very bottom of my rudder.

Since it will be submerged in water...any suggestions?

I found an epoxy that is waterproof...what do you think, and thanks!

Stephen

Stephen J. Moore

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2008 : 19:17:02

I think epoxy would work just fine but, you need to be sure the core is as dry as you can get it. Since you're north of the Mason-Dixon, I assume you're on the hard now. I'd give the rudder some time in warm environment and fix the crack in the spring.

Edited by - on

DJAnderson
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2008 : 19:49:35

While you're at it, you might also want to wrap the tip of the board in a strip of fiberglass set in that epoxy, especially if the rudder is wood. This will help prevent further splitting and provide a little abrasion resistance.

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 07:26:29

When we pulled our boat out this fall, we found that the rudder had De-laminated!

, after researching this I found that some of the earlier rudders had a wood core that swelled up when a crack appeared and there is no fixing them as I am told. Ours is all fiberglass and we
were able to remove the mats to get to the good than with a friends assistance I have re-fiberglassed it to original. If there is a crack in yours,depending on age I would make sure it is solid before you Epoxy it together... otherwise it could get uglier at the wrong

time. I have about 10 man hours in it. A new rudder is about $600-750. depending on who you get it from.

Edited by - Alan Clark on 12/11/2008 07:28:15

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 08:01:21

The wood-cored rudder can be salvaged if you get to it before it suffers damage in a place where it is structurally compromised. I sealed mine and used it for many years after it first cracked. (although I kept my eyes peeled for a used rudder for sale on our Swap Meet, and bought one when I found one reasonably priced and close-by.)

The rudder should be stored in a warm basement during the winter, and allowed to dry out. If the crack is really small, you might even open it up by drilling a couple of holes in it, to help it dry thoroughly. In the spring, you should pour "Git Rot" into it, to fill any voids in the interior. (You could also use epoxy, but Git Rot is more watery, and will flow more easily into smaller spaces.) Also, it seems to remain liquid longer, before it sets up, giving it more time to flow.) After you have treated it, fill the crack and any holes, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to cover the crack with a little fiberglass fabric, but be careful not to create a big bump, which will generate turbulence, and affect the rudder's efficiency. A little bump won't hurt it significantly.

Edited by - on

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 08:28:39

I'll go ahead and share a quick story of how it 'got ugly' for me.

Was out in 25 mph winds, didn't reef the main, had the 110 up, and some pretty bad weather helm going on (everyone else had reduced sails). But, had just bought the boat, and wanted to push it a little get whatever was going to break, to break then.

All of a sudden, the rudder broke over just below the tiller, and was essentially rudderless. Did two 360's before could get the motor down and started. Was ok until I realized was low on gas (was holding off filling the tank since almost end of the season). Put the 110 back up, 'reefed' it by tying off the bottom few hanks, and limped back to the marina on a broad reach with the throttle low.

I was sweating bullets thinking I was going to get blow up on shore. I'll see if I can get some pics of the rudder so you can see them. I assume it was the original one, unbalanced fiberglass design.

p.s. Anyone have a rudder for sale??

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 08:58:01

Unusual... Usually they break right at the lower pintle, where the torque from the blade is opposing the torque from the tiller, and the sideways forces from the pitching, heeling boat are strongest. That original rudder has a wood core down to the lower pintle--I think it's solid fiberglass below the "head". Over the years, it absorbs water, sometimes freezes, splits the shell open so there's a crack between the two halves... and becomes mush.

The HDPE replacements are questionable--some have snapped like the plastic they are. I felt good about the foam-cored fiberglass balanced replacement I bought back in about 2000--the same thing as Catalina put on the '89-90 models--but I don't know whether they're available any more.

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 09:38:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by HeelinPatrick
 

All of a sudden, the rudder broke over just below the tiller, and was essentially rudderless.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Been there, done that - Be sure to put the cotter ring in the lower pintle too.

If you rudder already has a crack, there is a strong possibility that it is wet in other areas too. We had this problem and swiss cheesed the rudder with the half inch drill bit. After sanding it down we treated any blisters gouged out any cracks and let it sit in a warm dry area of the house for the better part of the winter. We then filled it back up with West System and a good strong filler (colloidal silica). After block sanding, barrier coat and bottom paint we were good to go. We also filled in and retapped the holes for the tiller and included a ferrule (is that the right word) for the screw.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2008 : 10:39:27

BTW, that double-360 (sudden round-up into a tack, backwinding the jib, pushing the bow down into a violent jibe, rounding back up, and repeating...) is what you can expect when a rudder fails in heavy air and seas. Somebody can definitely get hurt! (Release the jib sheet--quickly!) IMVHO, when the wood core in that rudder head is compromised, you're asking for it. Flowable epoxy might or might not get to the critical areas to maintain the necessary strength. Lake sailors might be OK with it, but big water sailors, where the boat is pitching fore-and-aft under heel putting huge forces on the blade, need a rudder they can trust. (Opinion worth every cent you paid for it.

)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 12/11/2008 10:43:10

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2008 : 09:46:35

I'll pay for everything but the Lake Sailor part.

When our rudder went we were about 5 miles out and it was blowing about 25-30 with 6 -8 foot following seas. Under Main only our GPS showed 13kts coming down the backsides of waves. If we would have had a Jib up, or even worse the kite I'm certain we would have layed her over.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 12/12/2008 : 14:25:26

My rudder had a crack around the outside, and a crack across the lower pintle.

I made a paper pattern to line everything up later.

I bought a good respirator, and got the West System booklet and materials.

I cut the rudder open around the edge, let it dry indoors for 4 months, then ground it down across a patch around the lower pintle. For grinding I used my belt sander with coarse or fine paper. I had goggles, a disposable shirt with a hood, and old clothes to discard. Work gloves. Fiberglass dust is not carcinogenic, but causes several lung diseases and exacerbates others.

Here's the port side

Here's the way the lower pintle area looked before the repair

Here's the starboard side - note the large void I uncovered

First 3 layers fiberglass applied to the starboard side - little, bigger, biggest

Then 2 more layers of glass

3 layers of glass applied to port side

Then 2 more layers of glass to port side

2 big patches of fiberglass around 24 inches of the rudder, and then stbd and port sides got 2 layers of sealing epoxy

Finally, epoxy paint above the waterline, and bottom paint below the waterline

This repair (7-8 fiberglass layers on each side of the rudder) lasted about 20 months, until I experienced 15-20 knot winds with gusts to 25 knots in 3 foot seas, last month. Since the plywood core had softened over years of being wet, there was no way the original dimensions of fiberglass would restore the original strength to the rudder.

Maybe 3 or more complete wraps in fiberglass might have helped regain more strength, but I think the wood core must be a major factor in the strength of the structure, and not just a frame for the fiberglass. My repair did withstand 10-15 knot winds, heeling over at 45 degrees in 3 foot seas several times, but not this last one time with stronger winds. It's just like the weather out on the Chesapeake Bay today:
SMALL CRAFT ADVISORY IN EFFECT THROUGH LATE TONIGHT

TONIGHT
NW WINDS 15 TO 20 KT. GUSTS TO 25 KT EARLY. WAVES 2 TO 3 FT.

That's the story of my venerable, original rudder. Half of it now lies at the bottom of Eastern Bay off Tilghman Point, MD.

For the fun part of the broken-rudder story, look for my tale of 6 and a half lighthouses on the Cruising Forum.

Edited by - JohnP on 12/12/2008 14:33:28

Old Disco Queen
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 12/13/2008 : 21:32:54

Wow! Thanks guys for all that jazz....whew!

Stephen

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2008 : 10:52:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 I'll pay for everything but the Lake Sailor part.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You know what I meant...

L. Erie definitely qualifies as "big water"--that's why I didn't say "ocean".

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2008 : 11:06:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 ...IMVHO, when the wood core in that rudder head is compromised, you're asking for it...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 ...Since the plywood core had softened over years of being wet, there was no way the original dimensions of fiberglass would restore the original strength to the rudder. ...Half of (the repaired rudder) now lies at the bottom of Eastern Bay off Tilghman Point, MD.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2008 : 17:39:40

If its just a crack, after it dries out squirt some 3M 4200 in the crack. Sticks like crazy and will never leak. Also is flexible enough to handle some joint movement.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2009 : 05:54:16

Well - I haven't even wet my "new" cat25 (1983) and you guys really got me scared. Buzzards Bay Ma., has prevailing 15-20kts and 3-5' chop. Sooooo, while on the dry (and under the damn snow) I took the rudder off and brought it home. Low and behold, the lower pintle assembly is loose. I removed it and found the holes in the rudder are enlarged. It appears the holes have been filled with 4200 in an attempt to shore-up the situation (and prevent water injestion?).

I can drill out and fill with epoxy and re-drill, no problemo. There appears to be no significant cracking and the rudder does not appear to be delaminated. So, how do I tell if I have water in the core? Its not practical to float it in water and see if it floats.

How bout weighing it? Is that a reliable way to check water injestion? Or should I drill some investigative holes into the core? I might be able to get one of those moisture detectors the surveyors use.

Thanks

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2009 : 10:57:39

If you keep the interior of the rudder sealed the rudder will last a looong time. Water intrusion through the pintle holes and or the exterior layer of f'glass opening is the usual culprit.

"drill some investigative holes "

Acetone can be used to help draw moisture out of a wet core... you can also use it to thin West System epoxy down to near the viscosity of water... or use a very thin epoxy like 'git-rot'.

Saturate the core with epoxy (like they should have done at the factory), seal the exterior, do the drill-n-fill on the pintle holes and she will probably last a lifetime.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2009 : 16:28:03

Appreciate the advice Clam. The real question is, how do I tell if I do have a wet core?

I guess the drill some holes method is the only way to go

(minus the "try floating it method)

Edited by - hinmo on 01/01/2009 17:31:19

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2009 : 18:47:53

Tape a plastic bag over the holes for the pintles. Lay it outside in the sun for a few hours. If there is moisture inside the plastic, guess what?
Anyway, mine is also cracked at the lower pintle drillings. I was going to grind and fiberglass repair it, but I was going to use unidirectional cloth and run it from the top to the bottom. That ought to hold. But, eventually, I will probably make a new balanced rudder using a foam core and all that jazz...

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 01/01/2009 : 23:46:09

Heelin Patrick, I think "txbigfoot" has a rudder for sale in the swap meet.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2009 : 10:52:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 ...mine is also cracked at the lower pintle drillings. I was going to grind and fiberglass repair it, but I was going to use unidirectional cloth and run it from the top to the bottom. That ought to hold....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Seems to me that's what another guy thought recently, and he ended up doing uncontollable 360s with slamming jibes. The wood core at that point is critical, and under substantial stress when the boat is heeled and pitching. Rot in the core is doom. Cracks in that area are signs of imminent failure.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/02/2009 10:55:42

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/02/2009 : 14:30:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Happy D
 But, eventually, I will probably make a new balanced rudder using a foam core and all that jazz...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

[url="http://newrudders.com/?page_id=12"]New Rudder Construction[/url]

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

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USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2009 : 04:40:13

Maybe a stupid question, but did anyone ever think of building a "get-me-home" spare? Maybe plywood glassed over job with a set of pintles attached? Just good enough that in case of catastrophic main rudder failure, would get you back under severely reefed sails?

...just a thought, not necessarily a good one

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2009 : 11:56:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hinmo
 ...did anyone ever think of building a "get-me-home" spare? Maybe plywood glassed over job with a set of pintles attached? Just good enough that in case of catastrophic main rudder failure, would get you back under severely reefed sails?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nothing stupid about that, but I considered my outboard to be my backup in case of rudder failure, sails as backup to the outboard, and TowBoatUS as backup to both. There's a practical limit to how much redundant stuff you'll want to load into a C-25.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 01/03/2009 : 17:52:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Seems to me that's what another guy thought recently, and he ended up doing uncontollable 360s with slamming jibes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I hear you loud and clear Dave. When I say unidirectional glass, I don't mean 4" across the rudder. I mean 24" minimum, maybe glass from the top to the bottom of the rudder with a little pre-bend in it.

I always look at it this way. If there are cracks in the part, it wasn't built strong enough to begin with. Catalina didn't do everything perfect first time. They learned over time. So if I look at my rudder and see cracks there, it wasn't build strong enough right out of the box.

For example, there was some gelcoat cracking at the lower gudgeon on the transom. Obviously it had just enough strength for the intended purpose. Believe it or not, that is excellent engineering. I added two pieces of 2408 stitch-mat on the inside. Two pieces about 8" square. That's 48oz of fiberglass, 45/45. Big stuff. It won't crack again. Overkill? Maybe, but I won't have to crawl my big butt back in there to fix that again.

I laid the rudder across two 4x4's and jumped up and down on it. It flexed but certainly didn't feel weak at the lower pintle holes. I was honestly trying to break it. Would have broke my ankle first.

I might learn the hard way

When in doubt, build it stout, out of something you know about.

Edited by - on

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