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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

C25 Swing Keel

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Dick
Deckhand

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USA
1 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/24/2002 : 09:42:24

I am considering buying a C25 and there seem to be a lot of swing keels out there, but I have been warned away from them due to problems such as more maintenance, they won't point as high, they knock at anchor and when on a downwind leg they vibrate. On the other hand they are easier to trailer, launch and retrieve and can approach a beach much easier. I would like some comments from you who have experience with the C25 swing keel, both good and bad.
Thanks, Dick

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2002 : 11:25:06

Dick,

I own a Catalina 25 swing keel. I have also owned a 22' swing keel boat, a 19' centerboard boat, a 14' daggerboard boat, and am building an 8' leeboard boat. I'm a big believer in retractable foils! (I also sail in a lot of shallow water.)

Maintenance:
Swing keels do require a bit more maintenance than fixed keels of the same size and material. To be really blunt about it, if you're allergic to doing preventative maintenance, don't own a boat.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> (How's that for diplomacy?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) I think most here would suggest that upon buying a Catalina 25 swing keel, one should plan on immediately replacing the cable ($40?), probably the winch($125?), and at least inspecting the cable eye bolt($15?) and all pivot parts($50?). All these parts are currently still available from the Catalina factory at what I consider very reasonable prices. Keel rust is another issue, but that applies to all external iron ballast, whether fixed or movable.

Pointing:
This is going to be an over simplification, but it's been my understanding that a keel's contribution to pointing ability is strongly influenced by the length (depth) of the leading edge. In that respect, a 5' swing keel would have an advantage (when lowered) over a 3' wing keel or maybe even a 4' fin keel. Obviously foil cross section is a huge factor too, and the C-25 swing keel presents a very good foil shape to the water when in the down position.

Knocking:
As for knocking at anchor, that would depend alot on the fit of the swing keel pivot pin, and whether the keel is up or down. My C-25's pivot pin has about 0.03" radial clearance, maybe 0.13" axial clearance, and it doesn't knock in any position. When anchored, I usually keep my keel up to reduce the chance of the anchor line getting caught on it if the boat pivots. (Can't take that precaution with a fixed keel!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Vibrations:
As for vibrations, the keel cable will hum when the boat is going fast unless the keel is either most of the way up, or all the way down with a bit of slack in the cable. The 1.500 lb. keel itself does not vibrate or hum.

Advantages:
Obviously, if you plan on trailering, the swing keel offers the upwind abilities of the deep fin keel combined with the easy launch and retrieval of the shallow wing keel. For me, one huge advantage of a swing keel is the ability to sail in shallow water, and to get going again after having run aground. When the boat stops, a few turns on that keel crank sure beats fussin', cussin', and maybe getting towed. As for approaching beaches, a fully retracted C-25 swing keel still draws around 3', so don't plan on stepping off the bow onto too many beaches with dry feet.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

I hope all this helps you in your buying decision!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/24/2002 : 16:47:36

"I am considering buying a C25 and there seem to be a lot of swing keels out there, but I have been warned away from them due to problems such as more maintenance, they won't point as high, they knock at anchor and when on a downwind leg they vibrate. On the other hand they are easier to trailer, launch and retrieve and can approach a beach much easier." - Dick

How will you use the sailboat? Will you rent a slip or mooring for the season or just drop it in the water every now and then? Will you primarily be sailing in one location or will you want to haul a boat over land to other cruising grounds? Is ease of maintenace in a boat a high priority for you? Will you be beaching and gunkholing a lot or just sailing in open water?

A lot depends on how you will use the boat because each keel configuration has it's advantages and disadvantages. A swinger's main advantage is "transportability". But with this utility comes increased maintenance to the keel system(keel, cable, winch, pivot pin,...etc), trailer maintenance, and the need to operate and maintain a capable tow vehicle(one capable of towing up to 6,000 lbs). A fixed keel has practically zero maintence, is more substantial, and you will probably never have any issues(failures) with the keel itself. But along with that the fixed keel as has a deeper draft(4 ft) than the board up swinger(although you still have to worry about the 3 foot rudder) and the fixed keel is definitely not as trailer "friendly" as the swinger.

I have owned both a 25 ft swinger and a 25 ft fixed keel and can speak to issues concerning both types of keels. I owned a trailered 25ft swinger for 7 years before buying my C25 fixed keel boat and, for me and my situation, the fixed keel boat is without question the better choice. I sail mostly in deep water and don't gunkhole in the shallows. I dock my boat at a marina for the entire season and do not have a need to trailer to other cruising grounds. At the end of the season, my boat is hauled out by a travel lift and cradle stored at a marina, so I don't require a trailer and tow vehicle. Some will say that the swinger allows them to sail in shallower water, but that is a little misleading. My old swinger had a 6 ft draft with the keel down and a Catalina swinger has a board down draft of 5 feet, so while actually "sailing", you have to be even more concerned about depth in the swinger. With my 4 ft fixed keel, I don't need to worry as much. Additionally, with the board up, one must be very careful in the shallows because the first thing to hit when running aground is the rudder and usually the ground wins. One time on my swinger I was motoring down a channel when a boat coming from the other way forced me to one side of the channel. With the keel up the rudder impacted the bottom and the lower pintle came out of the gudgeon sending the rudder into the prop. It was quite an effort to steer the outboard with one hand while keeping the boat's rudder from hitting the prop or going down to Davey Jones' locker. Another issue I had with the swinger was that I have a bit of a seaweed problem in my sailing area and every so often my boat would come to a dead stop because my keel cable had a hundred pound ball of seaweed wrapped around it. The only way to remove it was to go over the side and underneath the boat to pull it off(definitely not fun!).

The bottom line is that you need to assess what type of sailing you will be doing and buy the boat that best fits your needs, be it a swing keel or fixed. You may want to do a search for topics on both swing and fixed keels and let the experience of others help you in your choice.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - dlucier on 09/25/2002 00:15:55

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 02:21:03

I have owned my '78 swinger since 1983, except for 6 years when my friends owned her. I bought her back. She lives in the Columbia River most of the time, where the swing keel is a great advantage when the keel finds a sandbar. Raise up a few cranks and away you go, while others often stay hard aground on a falling tide! I keep my keel down at nearly all times, and in fresh water it's had only 2 cable replacements!!! I did it this spring for safety's sake, but everything looked good. My keel doesn't "klunk", and the cable vibration is eliminated by letting the tension off of it.

While my boat lives at a marina most of the year, the swinger on a trailer is easy to maintain and work on. I do my own bottom jobs, hull waxing, etc. under cover, at home, and once a year I trailer to the San Juans for a several week cruise. I can be 250 miles away from home and hanging on a hook on a beautiful island in one day, while larger, fixed keel owners either spend a fortune to have the boat moved from this area, or spend DAYS traveling down the river and up the nasty, relatively unprotected Washington coast into a prevailing wind and current. I've made the trip several times and it is NOT much fun.

I think the cautions and fears spread about on this site are often exaggerated, when it comes to swingers. I have never had a problem with mine, and doubt that the maintenance is any more than with a fixed keel when one considers keel bolts, rebedding the gap between keel and hull, etc.

I like the performance advantages in a fixed keel, larger boat, but I keep the C25 swinger because it is SO incredibly practical for the way I use a boat. Your needs probably vary, but don't get paranoid about swingers. Plan on more routine maintenance if you're in salt. But, hey, you'll have more maintenance with a fixed keel then, too!

Gary Bruner
Encore! #685 SK/SR

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 03:03:42

One other brief thought:

Where do you plan to moor the boat. Several years ago a friend had a swing keel boat moored in the Hudson River, subjected to not only changing winds, but significant river currents. After a relatively severe storm - which happen two or three times a year, he came to the club and found his boat sitting on the bottom. He would never again get a swing keel, replacing his with a fixed keel.

I now sail an inland lake which doesn't have those kinds of severe water conditions so that some of the advantages of the swing keel maybe realized.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, std, wing
The Great Sacandaga Lake

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 09/25/2002 : 06:35:04

Dick,

Welcome aboard. I think you'll find the Catalina 25 to be a great choice. All of the answers above do a great job laying out the pros and cons of the swing keel; but keep in mind that it is possible to have a "catastophic" failure of the cable, allowing the keel to swing full force into the trunk. The resultant crash can crack the trunk and may well result in a sunken boat.

Having said that, we've owned a sing keel for the past two years and have been very happy with it. With proper maintenance, the swing keel performs just fine, and I have complete confidence in it. Although by limiting your search to a specific type of keel, you'll narrow the field of your search for a new boat, you may want to consider the "whole" boat vs. the type of keel. In other words, if you find a good deal, or a well-equipped boat in good shape, accept whatever type of keel it's got unless you've got concerns with trailering (ease of handling shallow draft boats--swing or wing keel, vs. fin) and/or mooring (shallow water).

Also recommend a survey by a person familiar with the Catalina 25. It can be tempting to avoid this cost when buying a boat in the price range of your typical used Catalina 25, but you'll find it's some of the best insurance you can buy! It will help you not only avoid a "lemon," but will also help you learn about your new boat. And if you go ahead and buy, the results of the survey may provide a great start to your "things to do" list.

As you start to narrow your search, go ahead and make a post to this discussion group with any questions or observations--you'll get great feed-back from all the knowledgable folks that have experience with this great little boat.

Best of Luck!

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84TR/SK #4707

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