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Sailing on empty...

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/29/2009 : 21:10:59

Perhaps this has been discussed before but... does anyone of you have experience sailing some distance with an empty ballast tank.

Would you try it... under what conditions...

What could be a consequence...

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - zeil on 01/29/2009 21:19:08

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 21:22:27

Henk,
I have no experience, but I'll offer an opinion (imagine that). It would seem that the boat would be inherently unstable due to the lack of ballast to counterbalance the wind on the sails. Sailing would probably be a bad idea, but you'd probably be OK motoring for a short distance.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2009 : 21:35:49

I was thinking along the lines David mentioned but....

Since you have a centerboard, I'd imagine that your boat would handle much like a smaller daysailer. You're centerboard probably wouldn't provide sufficient lateral resistance to significant wind though. In light wind on a calm day it might be OK but, the real question is why would you want to? I guess you could get up on plane if you put Bristle's Honda on the back end and pretend you've got a MacGregor.

BTW Henk, welcome back. Haven't heard from you in a while. How was the north country?

Edited by - John Russell on 01/29/2009 21:36:16

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2009 : 05:57:20

Henk,
I suspect that under many conditions no problem, but there may be little forgiveness if things start to go wrong.

About 3-4 years ago, a tragic accident occurred here when a family with a Hunter 25/26? attempted to cross the lake at night in moderate chop without ballast. I'll skip all the details except that the skipper had been drinking and they were motoring when the boat turtled. The father was formally convicted last year with negligent homicide - but I'm sure there is nothing the courts can do to outweigh the real cost of that day.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2009 : 08:34:35

Sailing in a ballasted boat without said ballast is simply asking, make that begging, for trouble.

Once at my marina, a just launched water ballasted sail boat was trying to get to his slip from the ramp and he was all over the place. He was doing donuts and making spontaneous U-turns that had those on the docks scrambling to help him fend off other boats. Eventually, he was wrangled into his slip. Afterwards, a sailor friend of mine, who also owns a water ballast boat, said to me, "trying to manuever a water ballasted boat with empty tanks is like trying to steer a beachball".

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2009 : 10:30:58

Much worse is with the tank half full. Then it actively destabilizes the boat as the water goes to the low side of the tank. (Try standing in a hard dinghy that's half full of water.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 01/30/2009 10:31:59

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
855 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2009 : 14:20:20

Henk,

I have motored my C250 about a mile from the launch ramp to the slip.
Even motoring with bare poles on a calm day it felt top heavy.
I don't plan on doing that again.

Russ

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 05:47:18

Thank you for response... don't worry we won't attempt sailing on empty... however, during our trip while in salt water, we motored several times without ballast from a launching place to our slip. This in order to fill the ballast tank with fresh tap water to keep the inside of the tank clean. The boat felt indeed wobbly but with all our stuff on board not out of control. Steering & maneuvering on empty for several miles was not a problem but imagine it could be when windy.

For those wondering where we disappeared to the first part of last year, here is an image of the 5 months invested taking down a house trailer and building a 30 x 70 ft 2100 sq.ft. plus carport and covered porch house with help of friends, church and community in Telkwa, BC

Brand new 2100 sq.ft house for the kids in Telkwa, BC (Picture taken during a visit in November 2008)

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 02/02/2009 : 17:32:14

I just remembered a story (don't have time to find it now) but it was a MacGregor 26M with 2 young kids onboard inside the cabin. The boat wasn't sailed but only motored by a newbie. The newbie didn't fill in the WB tank thinking he didn't need to if he wasn't sailing. The boat tipped over when he made a hard turn, water quickly rushed into the cabin and sunk the boat in seconds. Police scuba divers found the kids inside the cabin caught up in all kinds of ropes as they paniced. What a sad story. I keep thinking about it an how easily accidents like this can happen due to the lack of knowledge of the dangers. Boy I couldn't live with myself after something like that. :-(

Even a C250 has only about 100 pounds of weight on the keel (which is probably retracted anyways). Without ballast try to imagine pulling the mast down all the way to the water. Do you think it would prop backup by itself? My guess would be no.

Edited by - Steve Blackburn on 02/02/2009 17:38:39

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2009 : 17:50:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 I just remembered a story (don't have time to find it now) but it was a MacGregor 26M with 2 young kids onboard inside the cabin. The boat wasn't sailed but only motored by a newbie. The newbie didn't fill in the WB tank thinking he didn't need to if he wasn't sailing. The boat tipped over when he made a hard turn, water quickly rushed into the cabin and sunk the boat in seconds. Police scuba divers found the kids inside the cabin caught up in all kinds of ropes as they paniced. What a sad story. I keep thinking about it an how easily accidents like this can happen due to the lack of knowledge of the dangers. Boy I couldn't live with myself after something like that. :-(

Even a C250 has only about 100 pounds of weight on the keel (which is probably retracted anyways). Without ballast try to imagine pulling the mast down all the way to the water. Do you think it would prop backup by itself? My guess would be no.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Take a look at the McGregor website showing a Mac 26X NOT sinking despite a hole thru the bottom:
http://www.macgregor26.com/safety/safety.htm

I didn't find anything similar for a 26M but my 26D water ballast (older than a 26M) had lots of flotation foam in between the top deck and the inside of the boat.

I like my Catalina 250 WK a lot better than the 26-D, but not because of any hope that the Cat 250 would not sink if flooded. I have not seen any flotation foam anywhere in it.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2009 : 19:17:30

I found the article I was talking about. The article below is the last from a series of 5. I found the last article to be the most relevant technicaly speaking. Source http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/08/2009 : 21:16:12

That series of newspaper articles is very sad indeed. I also thought the McGregor site was interesting. It includes this statement:

We do not consider the boat to be self righting with an empty tank.

Later, on the warning label it states that when motoring above 6MPH that the sails should be removed (not lowered, removed). It also says that when motoring no one should be on the deck. I wonder how many people fail to follow these directions?

Of course this also points to the importance of those of us with keeled boats to be attentive to our keel bolts and for those with swing keels to keep a critical eye on the pivot bolt and keel cable. If we lose the keel our boats will also go over.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 03/08/2009 21:20:53

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 00:01:28

Another small point: freshwater may keep your tanks cleaner, but saltwater is denser.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 02:16:20

You know me I just had to go look that one up. I just read that saltwater was about 1.5 times heavier than fresh. I'm amazed at such an enormous difference. It must feel very different with my WB boat in saltwater. Because of the higher density the boat must float more and sail flater due to the higher weight of the ballast. Wouldn't that make it faster in saltwater?

Randy, I gather that your comment on loosing the keel is based only on the WK version. The centerboard weighs only about 100 lbs which is to help it sink when deploying. When retracted doesn't do much in terms of ballast.

Edited by - on

beach bum
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 13:48:05

Okay. This post is scaring me. I'm VERY new to sailing/boat ownership. But a boat came along that I didn't want to pass up. It's an 84 Catalina Tall Rig. I bought it and had to move it so I motored it to it's new temporary home(no trailer).

I don't think I have a ballast that I can fill/empty? Is this something on the newer models?

Forgive me for such a rookie comment. I'm still doing my research and have been reading posts on here for about a month trying to gather as much info as I can. I'll try to get some pictures up today.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 13:59:30

Beach Bum,

Rest easy, your '84 C25 doesn't have water ballast. You probably couldn't get it to roll over if you tried!

Oh, and welcome to the fleet and the forum!

(I used to live just down the street from you in King George)

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 14:44:39

Steve, I was refering to C25 swing keels.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 14:53:33

Beach Bum... Welcome, and congratulations! The Catalina 250, which began production in the 1990s, a few years after the last year of the Catalina 25, has the option of a water ballast tank in conjunction with a retractable centerboard. The two generations are very different boats. The older C-25 offered three forms of ballast: a 1900# fixed fin keel, a 1500# swing keel, and in later years, a wing keel that replaced the swing. Any of the three can be pulled over literally till the mast is touching the water, and will pop back up. Under sail, that's almost impossible to do, by the way.

The C-250 with an empty water ballast tank is likely to be unstable. At a minimum, I'd follow Catalina's instructions. I've been on an empty-tank C-250 at a boat show (and told the salesman he should fill the tank)--it felt very sensitive to every move I made.

Note that the MacGregor in the story above had eight adults and three children aboard, with all adults up above--probably some on deck or sitting on the cabintop, raising the center of gravity. Very sad story.

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 15:16:55

8 adults looking at fireworks possibly sitting on the same side.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 19:30:02

Beach Bum, welcome to the forum and congratulations on your purchase. We bought our 1984 C-25 tall rig about 2 years ago. You'll love it!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/09/2009 : 20:01:10

Saltwater is really only about 1.027 g/cc compared to about 1 g/cc for fresh or 2.7% denser which makes a little less ballast above the waterline and a little buoyancy for the volume below the waterline. I think that is around 64 verses 62.4 lb/cubic ft and about 7.5 gal/cubic ft. I don't know your volume or the location of your tank, so you can do the calculation if you're interested. It won't be much.

Welcome aboard Beach Bum!

Edited by - on

beach bum
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2009 : 12:26:37

Thanks for the friendly welcome everybody. I was pretty sure I wasn't overlooking anything but after reading that article and the comments I wanted to be 100%. I've almost memorized the owners manual...thanks to this site...and I am still reading many posts and gaining a ton of good knowledge.

dlucier, I’m actually planning on moving her to Colonial Beach once the weather breaks and I learn a few more basics. By looking at your locations it doesn’t look like your missing King George very much!

Edited by - on

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