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Bimini question for North Star

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ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/27/2002 : 13:42:50

Don, I post a question personally on the grounds it will be of interest to other bimini buyers: in my review of bimini thread, your post with photo and text indicates your good buy was 6 feet by 82 inches wide, and that you mounted it on track, and cut ten inches off to to lower height. Questions: (1) What was original height, from which ten inches was removed? I can get one that is 54 inches high, and realize I must remove some. (2) The track--was this your genoa track on the rail, as shown in the tech tips for "Yahoo"? Or do you have some other track available? I hope to use the Yahoo setup. (3) The stock bimini available to me is 78 inches wide, and I measure the track-to-track distance as 82", just in front of the winch island (my bpoat is an 81)please comment as to whether you think there is enough "slop" to allow for two inches difference each side (4-last) Does the placement of your base fitting, which looks like it is even with the winches, allow for passage out at the front? How about passage for Old, Stiff, Fat people? All commentary much appreciated, thanks ron sr sk Orion SW FL #2343

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2002 : 00:55:36

Ron,

We modified a 72" (six foot) x 54" height x 76" wide stainless bimini for our tall rig. We utilize a deck mount vs. genoa tracks due to the curvature of the tracks limiting range of movement as well as interfering with running rigging on our boat. Ours is in a fixed position that allows the bimini to be put up and stored without interfering with any running rigging so that changes can be made under sail.

We had to remove 4" of total height as well as raising the boom a nominal 20". This allows us standing room under the bimini and the ability to sail with the bimini up for cruising. For racing, we remove the bimini from the boat completely with four quick-release pins and sail with the boom at design height. If you have a standard rig, your boom is 12" higher and it's more practical to mount a tall bimini without adjusting the boom height.

We used stainless supports vs. webbing to support the aft end of the bimini. This allows us to collapse the bimini aft for storage under sail without interfering with any running rigging. Additionally, it stiffens the bimini structure and allows the bow to be used as a hand hold (handy for comming aboard at the dock and trips to the foredeck). We had to utilize a braced heavy-wall tube stainless bimini so that our three kids can hang on it like monkeys without doing any damage!

Best of Luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2002 : 02:17:31

Hello Ron,

I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

"(1) What was original height, from which ten inches was removed? I can get one that is 54 inches high, and realize I must remove some."

I'm not really sure what the original height was of the off-the-shelf bimini, but I determined the maximum height for the bimini by hoisting the main sail and sheeting it in tightly(I hoisted the main and tightened the downhaul to determine the lowest possible position of the boom). Then I measured the distance from the bottom of the boom to the genoa tracks. To get an accurate measurement I put my boat hook across the cockpit and measured from the centered boom to the center of the boat hook and then added the distance from the ends of the boathook down to the genoa track. I factored in a 1" clearance between the top of the bimini and the boom. Don't forget to factor in the mounting hardware when determining how much to cut off of the supports.

"(2) The track--was this your genoa track on the rail, as shown in the tech tips for "Yahoo"? Or do you have some other track available?"

Yes, I mounted it to the genoa track using my old track cars that I modified for use with the bimini.

"(3) The stock bimini available to me is 78 inches wide, and I measured the track-to-track distance as 82", just in front of the winch island (my boat is an 81)please comment as to whether you think there is enough "slop" to allow for two inches difference each side (4-last) Does the placement of your base fitting, which looks like it is even with the winches, allow for passage out at the front? How about passage for Old, Stiff, Fat people?"

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d904b3127cce9f7cd9e65e340000001410" border=0>

Biminis usually come in a range width like 78"-84" because they do flex a bit. I purchased the economy, aluminum framed model which had a lot of flex to it. This allows it to easily bend in and out as I slide it along the track. If the bimini that is available to you is 78" wide, I would flex(move inward and outward) the bottom of the bimini frame to see how much play you will have. As for getting in and out of the boat, I simply release one of the bimini's rear quick disconnect from the aft stern pulpit. With it disconnected, the bimini relaxes forward giving me between 1.5 to 2 feet to get on the boat. If I need more room I release both the bimini's aft tiedown connectors and this allows the bimini to fall forward opening up the cockpit. If I manually lift the boom, the bimini will neatly fold up forward onto the cabintop. The bimini mounts are just forward of the winches, but this doesn't allow much room to go forward. If you are a contortionist, you can squeeze through to the outside of the cabin or what I usually do is go up through the campanionway using my dinette seat's backrest as a footing to hoist myself to the cabintop. To access the foredeck easier, you can just release both forward disconnects and let the bimini fall aft.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2002 : 12:03:56

Man, I LOVE this site! There is such a wealth of experience and information to glean here.

Mike, it sounds like you came up with the perfect solution to the TR/bimini conundrum. I've been trying to envision a bimini that I could stand up under & and that I could stow out of the way. There is already too much "crouching" involved in our sport, so I didn't want a bimini I had to chronically hunch down under. Full standing headroom or nuthin'. I also didn't want to stow it forward where it would be in the way of the pop-top or access to the bow. The fact that you also gained a sturdy handhold for boarding the boat is pure icing on the cake!

How much does the 20" reef affect performance? I've been impressed with how easily my TR moves in light and moderate winds. Last weekend I sailed in 15-20k winds under just the 110 lapper, and was getting close to hull speed when the winds piped up. And I have yet to detect any significant weather helm on any point of sail, she just balances perfectly. Does the reef significantly affect speed, tenderness or weather helm?

Does the bimini frame in any way interfere with access to the outboard or swim ladder?

Randall

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2002 : 15:09:05

I have had my bimini for four years now and would like to share some thoughts. My boat is a standard rig so I don't have the tall rig issues to deal with. I do sail with the bimini up and have had it up all summer covering the cockpit hatch and just the front end of the cockpit. I have found that if the sun is too intense I can steer the boat in the shade or if not then I have a clear view of the mast head when I scoot back. At anchor it protects my wife in the galley and reduces the amount of sun entering the cabin. I have abandoned the set up on the genoa track. I really didn't move the bimini around much. Once I found the position it is currently at, I was a happy sailor. Also one of the biggist draw backs of the genoa track mount is that the bimini's supports block the side deck for moving forward. I was constantly getting hung up or tripping. I moved the new mountings to the inside of the side deck. If I were to order a new bimini I wouldn't get one any wider then the inside measurement of the cockpit. Once again the very wide bimini makes it very hard to move forward and I am not a big guy. This winter I will be reducing the width of my bimini and adding removable windows to the front edge to create a dodger.

My bimini's sizes are as follows
3-bow 6' length
31" - 36" height
73" - 78" width

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2002 : 20:46:31

Don, Mike, Ed---thanks so much for informative and extensive replies. I inherited with Orion the PO's bimini-like affair, cobbled up from an old awning and --as he put it--"some tubing I found on the dock, headed for the dumpster.". It looks sort of like the chuck wagon after Snuffy drove over the cliff. BUT it has one virtue: the back bow, by the boom end, is straight up and down, and the forward (sort-of) bow is up on the cabin top, next to the poptop and companionway slide. There is a passageway for old geezers to get forward with some ease, and a little writhing, which is not a feature of most biminis. Here in SW Fla, there are a million biminis to lookat and compare, which I have been doing. The ones that REALLY work are all custom stainless, where the forebow and aft bow are two separate items, with a commodious passageway in between, unfortunately these are superexpensive.So right now I am still measuring, because I cant figure out how to use a stock (read cheap) bimini that Pat and I can get past on the way to the foredeck. Have brandnew knee, but need some other parts as well, so have to be a bit careful. Thanks for your help, fair winds, ron 81 sr sk 2343 Orion

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 09:53:04

Randall,

There are no interference problems. That's only because we spent a lot of time figuring out how to mount the bimini to avoid them. The boat sails just fine with the raised boom. Note that to fly the boom in the raised position, we had to shorten it four inches. We also had to mount the bimini far enough forward so that it doesn't foul the main sheets with the boom abeam (as on a run).

We had one of our older sails recut to fit, so we don't have to sail with a reef. Obviously, this raises the center of effort of the sail; but for cruising purposes, we haven't had any problems. For racing, we use a full-sized sail with the boom in it's normal position. This requires removing the bimini, which takes two people about 3 minutes to accomplish. We leave it lashed to the dock pilings for storage.

All of this convinence and utility comes with a price though! Including the price of the bimini, extra tubing, modifiying the sail, fittings, etc., the price of the whole project was about a grand.

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

LeighMarie
Navigator

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USA
188 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 12:29:53

I purchased the bimini from Catalina Direct this past Spring, and had it out to my boat once. I haven't brought it back to the boat yet, as at that time I just couldn't see how I could mount it and still get off the dock onto the boat. Nor could I see, because it seems like I would have to mount it so far forward because of the rear traveler, how I would be able to get out of the cockpit onto the foredeck. Nor do I see how I would be able to stand under it and still have it below the boom. Are any of these a problem for those of you who have a bimini? It sounds like from the posts above that you have "gotten around" some of the problems, but I couldn't ascertain how to get onto the boat or out of the cockpit. Even though I'd like to have it on, I just may have to put it up for sale. Anyone looking for a bimini at a great deal?

Dave & Sharon on "Leigh-Marie"
Hull #5128

Edited by - on

Kirk McKay
Navigator

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USA
111 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 13:15:07

We also never sail with the Bimini on and it's also a bit of a PITA any time it's up. I think the problem is that the previous owner, when they set it up, mounted it too far aft. It wouldn't have as many issues with the main sheet if it was just slightly forward and it would also cover the cabin opening better as well. Currently the only time we put it up is when we go to bed on nights it might rain. It's also very hard to get down into the cockpit with it up. I guess it's time for a bigger boat! Hope my wife isn't reading this....

Kirk

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 20:03:30

"...I purchased the bimini from Catalina Direct this past Spring, and had it out to my boat once. I haven't brought it back to the boat yet, as at that time I just couldn't see how I could mount it and still get off the dock onto the boat." - Dave on Leigh-Marie

I installed my bimini last spring and, with the exception of coming into an unfamiliar dock, I have left it up the entire season(I'm not a racer). My wife and kids have absolutely no problems when boarding the boat with the bimini up and they find that the bimini greatly enhances their sailing pleasure because they are no longer baking under the summer sun all day long. An added benefit with leaving the bimini up is that it shades the hatchboards and other trim from the Sun's harmful rays.

"Nor could I see, because it seems like I would have to mount it so far forward because of the rear traveler, how I would be able to get out of the cockpit onto the foredeck." - Dave on Leigh-Marie

I have roller furling and my lines are led aft, so unless there is an emergency that needs my attention on the foredeck, 99 percent of my sailing time is spent in the cockpit and not on the foredeck. When in port, I find it is easier to just step onto the boat amidship when accessing the foredeck. As a matter of fact that's what I used to do before I had a bimini.

"Nor do I see how I would be able to stand under it and still have it below the boom." - Dave on Leigh-Marie

If you want standing headroom underneath the boom, I'm afraid you will have to get a different boat. As you can see from my picture the bimini can't go all the way aft due to the traveller so this leaves a couple of feet where you can stand up for a better vantage point.

The bimini has increased my family's sailing time almost two-fold. Before the bimini, the Admiral would give the return to port sign after only a few hours because she and the kids could only stand so much heat and direct sun. Now with the bimini it is like sitting underneath a shade tree with a gentle breeze blowing through the cockpit.

Don Lucier, North Star
C25 SR/FK

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 21:34:45

Mike,

OK, a couple of follow-up questions:

How do you "read" your sails/telltales/windex with the bimini up? I've pondered that for years when looking at all kinds of boats w/ biminis-- they either had clear windows in the bimini tops to look out, or full electronics to show apparent wind, etc., or the biminis were kicked far enough forward so the helmsman sat in the sun anyway so he could make necessary adjustments.
As I said in an earlier post, I'm the tyrant of the tiller. The cockpit is my workspace. I single-hand the boat, and if the cockpit can be set up to allow room for passengers it's a great plus. When underway, I sit just forward of the tiller, and have the cam cleats positioned on the coamings to lead the jib sheets straight to me. With a bimini up,that would appear to put me: a) in the shade (yay!), but b) in the blind when trying to read the sails (boo!).
How did you work that out?

Second, If I cut four inches off the boom, would there still be enough space for an outhaul to properly control a loose-footed main?

You know, I think I feel another topic coming on, one that just might suck more people into this discussion & draw on their experience........

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2002 : 21:58:56

AARGH, I just did it again!! I asked a question, then checked the general forum and found the issue already under discussion.

OK, so much for the sailkeeping-from-under-the-bimini question, but how's about the shortened boom issue?

I reckon I'll start that new topic on the general site:

BIMINI or BOOM-TENT?

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 03:00:10

Randall,

As for reading the sails, I don't have too much difficulty looking around the bimini. It does block the view somewhat, but is mounted relatively far forward (the aft end is about 3 feet forward of the aft end of the boom--thus it covers about half of the cockpit). So I find that I can see everything that I need by either looking over the back, or sticking my cranium out the side. We take the bimini down for racing, so there are no issues with visibility. I actually leave it up for social racing, since the smaller sail and bimini don't really inhibit performance too much. Additionally, we can fold the bimini into a stowed position aft (supported by stainless uprights in lieu of aft straps) under sail. Thus we can remove it from the equation. We also designed it so that if you pull just the aft pins, the entire bimini will lay forward on top of the cabin top, allowing for a deep reef with a lowered boom (i.e., unexpected heavy weather). Haven't used this feature yet, but figured that it's cheap insurance.

As for the shortened boom, that's required to fly the boom 20" above it's design height. I'm only 5'7", so for standing room in the cockpit, I required the bimini to be a few inches higher than that above the cockpit sole. When we built the bimini we started with a 5'9" clearance requirement, added the dimensions of the bimini (remember the center bow is higher than the fore and aft bows, so if you want clearance at the front and back, you'll need to add the difference!), and then allowed 2" from the lowest point of any hardware on the boom. This is how we came up with the need to raise the boom 20". If you don't require standing room, less of a boom raise is required, but you'll find that there's a "no man's land" where the gooseneck on the boom will end up in the kerf slot on the mast (the wider portion of the slot where you slip your sail slugs or bolt rope into the mast). The gooseneck needs to ride above or below this slot, with some room for a downhaul adjustment.

Once we raised the boom, we found out that in a viloent jibe, without vang tension (a worst-case scenario), the boom would rise just enough to interfere with the backstay as it flew across the cockpit. This has the potential to lead to a catastrophic rig failure, hence the need to shorten the boom a bit. I'll actually need to check my notes to ascertain if it was 3 or 4". Now, with the boom in a raised position, even during an uncontrolled flying jibe, there's clearance with the backstay. This is a simple modification, requiring only a hacksaw and a drill, although some type of belt sander is handy for truing the end of the aluminum extrusion.

There's still plenty of room for outhaul adjustment with a standard foot dimension (9.5'). As a matter of fact, we are going to get a new cruising main with shortened luff and increased foot (6") and there will still be room for adjustment. Note that as the leach length increases (i.e., more eliptical sail shape), there's probably going to be some overlap with the backstay with the raised boom. This is no problem, but you may consider adding extra chafe protection to the battan ends aloft.

I single-hand without any lines lead aft, save for roller furling (using a Davis tiller-tamer to allow foredeck work--although we're going to replace that with an autopilot next month), and with the large bimini and raised boom, we don't have any access problems as far as moving around the boat is concerned.

What I learned from this whole experience is that custom made, heavy-duty biminis are actually worth the price! Just taking the labor out of the equation, it was still expensive; but it was absolutely worth it as we live in Florida.

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - Mike Vaccaro on 10/02/2002 03:07:56

Edited by - on

Randall
Navigator

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123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2002 : 06:40:06

Thanks Mike,

Full standing headroom is a must, and even though I'm a towering 5'8" (and a 1/2"), it sounds like your setup would work perfectly for us. My wife is 5'6". The wild card is our 8 yo daughter who is already 4'5" and growing an inch a month it seems. But she's young & flexible, so if she wants to keep growing like that she can just start slouching down! It'll help get her ready to be a teenager.

Randall

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