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My Trim needs MORE help...

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2009 : 14:05:00

Ok so these 3 shots were taken during last year's "Georgina Cup." Let me know what would have made me even faster out there... These were taken from the "race photographer's" boat as he crossed our bow on the windward leg. The three are a series, one after the next.

Photo One:

Photo Two:

Photo Three:

I think I was single Handling in this race, can't remember now, and these photos aren't the high quality ones you pay for. Anyway, tell me what I need to hear.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - Prospector on 02/05/2009 14:07:54

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 14:23:02

From the lack of heeling shown and the lake surface it would appear that you were racing in light winds.
Looking at #3 I think that your main is flatter than Kansas. In those conditions you need to put more draft (i.e.power) in the main. Ease the outhaul and raise the topping lift slightly (I hope that you have an adjustable one).
Don't try to point high - you need speed to be able to point. In fact in very light air it's possible, by footing off, to gain enough speed to more than compensate for the extra distance sailed.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 14:28:37

Topping Lift? You think I have a topping lift!?! (Added to the list. Get a toppin glift.)

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4025 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 15:57:34

If those photos in the other thread is of your boat, then yes you have a topping lift. Its the cable running from the back (aft) of your boom to the top of your mast.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 16:12:38

Sorry Islander, The other thread was another boat - remember, this one has a better looking skipper

We do Sort of have a topping lift, but it was doing us more bad than good. It was a line tied off from the masthead to the back of the boom. Since it wasn't adjustable, it caused more grief than joy, and I disconnected it about halfway through th eseason. I know we didn't have it on for this race because this was the last race we were in before putting the boat away for the winter. For the coming season my plan is to rig 2 spare halyards. One to act as a topping lift to the boom, the other to act as a topping lift for the whisker pole.

Edited by - Prospector on 02/05/2009 16:16:14

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 22:28:31

If the topping lift is not adjustable, it's useless as a sail trim control. It's an inexpensive mod to do.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2009 : 23:22:26

" Ease the outhaul and raise the topping lift slightly (I hope that you have an adjustable one)."

"Raise the topping lift"?
IMO The topping lift is there to hold the boom up when lowering the mainsail or reefing the the mainsail NOT for trimming the sail when under way.
The concept of being too strapped in light air is correct but your topping lift is not used to shape the sail. The idea that you want more shape in the main and the headsail is correct but let whatever wind is available shape the sail. Watch your tell tales and create more lift in the sails.
BTW - That is why I don't subscribe to full batten mainsails. In light air they are useless in shaping the sail.
In extreme cases we have eased the halyard and certainly eased the outhaul but IMHO pulling up the topping lift will create an unnatural shape that will slow you down.

Edited by - on

swanny
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 00:03:07

I give the main a bit more shape in light winds by easing the boom vang (it looks in pic3 like you have one) moving the traveller to windward and easing the mainsheet. Granted, my traveller/sheeting is mid-boomish just aft of the companionway hatch so I have a large amount of travel.

Edited by - on

skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 06:31:10

It looks like your bow is up a bit - esp in pic 2. When my boat does this, it makes the stern drag and slows me down. I would sit as far forward in the cockpit as possible and make sure any movable weighty stuff below was toward the bow on the V birth. I find the adjustable topping lift useful in very light air - just don't overdo it. It is the last thing to do after adjusting the traveler/mainsheet/halyard/outhaul/boom vang to try to power up the main a bit.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 06:57:28

In light air, you need to ease all the sail controls. Ease the adjustable backstay, if you have one. The headstay should be slack to the point of swaying in the breezes, with a pronounced sag. Ease the jib halyard and the main halyard. (Depending on how light the wind is, you might even want to ease the jib halyard until the jib luff is scalloped.) Ease the mainsail outhaul. Move crew weight to leeward and forward, near the lee shroud. (It reduces wetted surface by lifting the stern out of the water and presenting the most efficient underwater shape. If you have as many as 3-4 adult crew on a C25 in light air, to use as movable ballast, you won't regret it.) When sailing to weather, bear off the wind a little bit more than usual (about a degree-and-a-half), but, if the sails and the crew weight are trimmed well, you can point to windward much better than you might think.

If the boat speed increases above about 2 1/2 knots, begin gradually adding tension to all the sail controls.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 08:05:22

Good ideas Steve M that might help me point better in my 89 wing with an old blown out main, thanks.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 08:23:52

With a topping lift, what do you guys do about th eroach of the main getting hung op on each tack? I have that problem now with the backstay. Can't imagine having to fight to bring it across two lines instead of just one!

Great tips so far!! Thanks guys!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 09:33:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 With a topping lift, what do you guys do about th eroach of the main getting hung op on each tack? I have that problem now with the backstay. Can't imagine having to fight to bring it across two lines instead of just one!

Great tips so far!! Thanks guys!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Chris, when there are two suggested ways of doing things, I firmly believe that you should try both ways, and adopt the method that works for you. Derek and others use their topping lift to shape their mainsail - I don't. I have tried it, and never saw any significant benefit from it. In light air, I shape the sails by using the sail trim controls, and by heeling the boat and letting gravity shape the sails. But, Derek is one of the smartest sailors I know, and I won't suggest that he's wrong. I'll just say I have never been able to make it work for me.

The problem with the roach is one consideration that you have to make in deciding whether the benefit of using the topping lift is worth the hassle. If you have to shake the mainsail to get the roach across the backstay or the topping lift, as I have seen some people do, you are spilling the air out of the sail, and completely disrupting the air flow across the sail. The boat loses drive, and loses speed, and it takes a few moments to re-establish that smooth flow of air, and it takes even more time for the boat to accelerate back up to speed.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/06/2009 09:35:03

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 09:55:10

Move your genoa cars forward, see how open the top of the headsail is? You are spilling air out the top half of the genny instead of directing it across the main. The main is too flat.
Edit: You want the two leeches to parallel each other.

Edited by - pastmember on 02/06/2009 13:30:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 10:04:20

My experience is that lifting the boom with the topping lift creates an up-draft on the sail--visible on the telltales and not helpful going to windward. To me, the ideal way to make the main fuller is to have a loose foot (which I didn't). Then easing the out-haul (with the vang still set) curves the sail so the air streams back, not up. With a bolt-rope, easing the out-haul helps a little, but not as much. Also, I would think with Derek's big roach on his main, the topping lift would cup the leach--not a good thing going to windward.

The other boats appear to be sailing higher (although that could be the camera) and you appear to be sitting to leeward--so you appear to be doing some of what Steve suggests. Your genny is somewhat full in picture 2 (good), but in 3 both sails are pretty hard for light air.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 10:37:37

I do indeed have a large roach on the main which you would think hangs up on the backstay. However, even in light air, by easing the mainsheet about 2-3" as we come into the tack, the leech generates enough momentum to "blow" through the backstay and topping lift if tight. (A trick that my sailmaker taught me

)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 13:40:57

Frank is right--cars back in high winds, to flatten the lower part and let the top twist off somewhat. Cars forward in low winds to tighten the leach and let the foot (and the whole sail) be fuller for more power. Cars between those two positions in moderate winds to flatten somewhat but not allow twist.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/06/2009 13:44:16

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 13:53:45

Another eureka. It sound simple now, but I never realized car position affected twist. Thanks again!

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2009 : 18:45:07

IMHO, the only time you would use the topping lift to help shape the main if sailing of the wind, like downwind or on a broad reach when you want to cup the main. Going to weather, you should let off on the topping lift, put some tension on the backstay (not too much in light air) and use the sheet and traveler to shape the main.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/06/2009 18:45:44

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2009 : 18:10:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Another eureka. It sound simple now, but I never realized car position affected twist. Thanks again!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank is correct and observant.
Most larger racing boats have genoa cars that are movable on the fly.

IMO There isn't one place that the cars should live, the position should change with the wind conditions.
On most sails you'll find a piece of tape (cloth tape) sewn through the clew and up the sail. It splits the sail between the foot and the leech.

Something like the photo above.
A basic rule of thumb is to have the sheet leave the sail in line with that piece of tape. That will give you a serviceable shape in most winds, more experienced sailors will tweak the trim and car placement from there.

Edited by - Peregrine on 02/07/2009 18:24:33

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