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VHF Radio/Antenna/Autopilot Dilemma

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GaryB
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USA
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Initially Posted - 02/07/2009 : 23:59:12

I sail solo most of the time and I'm trying to decide if I should buy a VHF radio and antenna first or an autopilot. I have a handheld radio now but the range doesn't seem to be very far.

I've been looking at Standard Horizon and Icom radios. The Icom 504 is what I've done the most research on but I've read some others like the Standard Horizons better because of the audio quality and service/support. Does anyone have a suggestion on which make and model is best?

I think I will go with the Shakespeare Galaxy 5225XP 8' antenna unless someone has a better suggestion.

For the autopilot I'm leaning towards the Simrad TP10 or 20 but was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Raymarine ST1000 or 2000?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Association Member

GaryB
Andiamo
'89 SR/WK #5862
Kemah,TX

Edited by - GaryB on 02/08/2009 00:00:12

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 00:13:53

Gary,
I'd say since you've already got a handheld VHF, an autopilot would seem next on the list. We have the Raymarine ST1000+ and like it. As far as a fixed VHF, we have a Uniden 525 and are quite pleased with it as well. For an antenna, we use a Metz Manta-6 mounted at the top of our mast. It's only about 3' tall. I was having problems with it, dropped them a line, and all they asked was for me to send them the base & they'd replace it. No questions asked and it was at least ten years old at the time.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/08/2009 00:21:29

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 00:34:53

Thanks David! My main concern with the handheld is the short range it seems to have. I'm planning on making some trips across Galveston Bay to some areas that are not very populated and I'm afraid if I get away from the main sailing area on the bay and get in trouble that no one would be able to hear me.

The reason I wanted to go with the 8' antenna was to avoid having to drop the mast and install the masthead antenna. I believe JimB has an 8' rail mounted antenna on his boat and gets pretty good range. Jim, can you verify?

I'll check out the Unidens!

Edited by - GaryB on 02/08/2009 00:36:24

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 06:37:43

Gary, another thought is that, if you only occasionally need capability for longer range communications, you can fill that gap with a cellphone, if you have one. Before you leave, charge it, bring your charger and install a cigarette lighter outlet on your boat, and program the phone numbers for the Coast Guard and local police into the address book, and you'll be able to contact help if needed.

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 08:19:05

I would spring for all of the upgrades! Including masthead antenna.

Remote means needing longer range vhf, and mast head antenna, because of it's height, will have a longer range than a rail mount 8' (assuming the vhf has the power)

Autopilot (drool) for single handing is a must from all the articles I've read on here. Ok, single handing on short trips is 'ok' but longer range... go for it.

Jim! do you have an autopilot on indicipline?

Paul

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 08:27:14

I may have the race wrong, but I believe the gentleman who won the Transpac was using an ST1000 on a 27 foot boat. He got into trouble on the return from Hawaii and had to abandon it but at the time we were amazed that he was using an ST1000. I don't think the TP10 can be connected to a chartplotter.
Ed

Edited by - on

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 09:58:02

A 3 watt handheld vhf radio connected to a masthead mounted halfwave (39 inch approx.) endfed antenna will have better coverage than a deck mounted 8 ft vhf antenna connected to a 25 watt fixed radio. You can try this by getting an adapter for whatever antenna connector is on your handheld, to the PL-259 connector on the antenna coax. Several electronics suppliers have coax connector adapters including Radio Shack probably by mail order, not in the store. Remember VHF is "line of sight", the higher the better and power means nothing to the receive capability of the radio.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:01:53

Ditto what the others said about the masthead antenna. One of the nice things about our boats is that it is easy to drop the mast. Putting the antenna up there will greatly increase your range. While you are at it be sure to use high quality coax and fittings. We use an iCom 304 VHF and are very happy with it. It is hooked up to our GPS chartplotter for full-DSC capabilities. That is another recommendation I would have for anyone cruising.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:21:48

Good point Randy, I forgot to mention the DSC connection. Our Uniden 525 is connected to our Garmin C-276 for DSC. As far as the differences between Unidens & Icom's, I think the Icom's are built to higher standards overall, and their price reflects that. I was able to get our Uniden with a WHAM wireless microphone for the same price as a comparable Icom alone. On the off chance you get both a Uniden & Garmin chartplotter, I can provide you with the wiring diagram to connect to DSC, it's a non-trivial task to figure it out, so I put it into a color coded spreadsheet in case I ever need to do it again. I also put a color printout folded up into the space where the bus bar is that I connected everything together.

Also a good point about VHF line of sight KD4A0, the higher your antenna, the further you can receive & transmit. I hadn't thought about simply rigging an antenna at the top of the mast & connecting it to your handheld, that seems like a pretty good compromise until you get a fixed VHF.

Mounting the antenna to the mast isn't a big job, a few screw holes for the L-bracket and some pop rivets or bolts & you're done. Rigging the coax through the mast can be a bit of a challenge, I replaced mine last winter and put in all new fittings. You should have a pull string all the way through your mast, and in my case, one inside the conduit, and one outside. Make sure you pull a new pull string in when you pull your coax. Also, make sure you have a drip loop at the antenna connection so you're not encouraging rain water to run into your coax connectors & antenna base.

Edited by - delliottg on 02/08/2009 11:22:42

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 13:57:53

David, we use a handheld in the cockpit as the iCom is in the cabin. I wish it had WHAM capability. We use the handheld almost exclusively but then 90% of our communications are to marinas as we approach looking for a slip. The iCom serves as the platform for DSC. Because the iCom has a far greater range, I plan to add a cockpit speaker so that as we monitor 16 we'll have better range.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 14:55:28

Steve - I always carry a cellphone, it's always charged, and I have a DC outlet. Now that I think of it this might be the best alternative. Then I could go for the autopilot now!!!

Paul - I cannot agree more! Since you're so kind to offer to spring for all of my needs I'll email my address and bank acount number offline so you can deposit your funds!

Ed - Thanks for the info. I've been thinking I would go for the ST-2000 or TP20 just to have the extra strength and the ability to hook up to my GPSMAP378.

Randy/Bob - Not a bad idea on hooking up the handheld to a masthead antenna. I was just trying to avoid having to drop the mast. Maybe I could just haul the antenna and coax up to the top of the mast if I'm in a remote location.

David - The DSC was one of the reasons I was thinking of getting a fixed mount radio. I was leaning towards the Uniden for the wireless WHAM microphone. In this day and age I think all of the manufacturers should have full function wireless remotes.

Can you send me the wiring diagram. There's a very good chance I'll go with the Uniden and I already have the Garmin GPS.

Which make/model antenna are you guys using? Sounds like a 3dB gain is what I should be looking at for a sailboat? What brand of coax and fittings?

How many of you have autopilots? Are they really necessary for single handing? 99% of the time I'll be day sailing solo with an occasional trip of 15 to 30 miles.

OR

would it be a better overall investment to go with a roller furler and new headsail instead of the autopilot?

Thanks to all of you for the great advice!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 18:58:21

Personally, I'd go for the furler and new head sail. Being able to adjust and douse the head sail from the cabin is a safety and ease-of-use issue IMHO.

For cable and fittings we use:
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?resultCt=1&jspStoreDir=wm51&catalogId=10001&productId=9648&keyword=3757747&y=0&x=0&storeId=10001&ddkey=SiteSearch"]3757747 connectors[/url]
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?resultCt=1&jspStoreDir=wm51&catalogId=10001&productId=264587&keyword=3757630&y=0&x=0&storeId=10001&ddkey=SiteSearch"]3757630 double connector[/url]
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?resultCt=1&jspStoreDir=wm51&catalogId=10001&productId=46511&keyword=540740&y=0&x=0&storeId=10001&ddkey=SiteSearch"]540740 Cable Clam Through Hull[/url]
[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/11062/377%20710/0/vhf%20cable/Primary%20Search/mode%20matchallpartial/0/0?N=377%20710&Ne=0&Ntt=vhf%20cable&Ntk=Primary%20Search&Ntx=mode%20matchallpartial&Nao=0&Ns=0&keyword=vhf%20cable&isLTokenURL=true&storeNum=5003&subdeptNum=3&classNum=309"]165714 Stainless Steel Whip Antenna[/url]

We used 35' of RG8X coax cable.

The cable clam allows you to have the coax cable connection inside the cabin.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 02/08/2009 19:07:03

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 19:02:51

Gary, I have the Raymarine ST1000 & use it everytime I go out solo. It's plugged in and ready to go before I leave my slip. One time it came in handy when I had to manually furl the jib. Other times it was just nice to go below to get something-food, drink or jacket. I am very glad I have it.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 02/08/2009 19:07:28

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 21:11:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 would it be a better overall investment to go with a roller furler and new headsail instead of the autopilot?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ooh, furler or autopilot? Hmmm, tough choice, but I'd have to go with the furler. From changing headsails on a bouncing, heaving, wet foredeck to stuffing a just changed, wet genoa down the hatch, there is absolutely nothing I miss from my hank on days.

Edited by - on

redviking
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 21:23:26

I had the TP20 and loved it! Plenty powerful, forget the TP 10! I even had a 20 foot remote control. Wish I had kept it for use with our windvane in case of emergency during a crossing.

Safety Curmudgeon ON! WTF!???? Line of sight is right! Full power radio wired to the batteries with an antenna to the mast! If you don't have it, get off of the water until you do! When you are in a bad way, you don't want to have to go forward and haul some rinkydinky antenna aloft.

BTW - My wife just asked what the "peeps" were talking about. I told her of this thread and she just laughed. You guys! C'mon! your VHF IS your first line of defense, forget the cell phone! How will I know you are in a bad way if you don't have a VHF running to the mast? Screw the AP, be able to communicate!

I was 10 to 12 NM away from the 25 foot Bellavanto on the Cheasepeake when they issued a mayday/pan pan. As some of you may recall we raced to the scene and wound up escorting the vessel into Solomons Island. (Coasties may have blocked transmission, yada, ya da)... Anyway, my point is that if you are relying on a handheld, I won't hear you at that distance, nor will the Coasties. (In the aforementioned incident - Coasties were over 2.5 hours away as they would have deployed from Station Baltimore.)

Standard safety equipment. PERIOD! Some folks seem to think of their vessels as some sort of Laser or something. I don't get it. It's a pocket yacht! Outfit is as such and be a prudent mariner! Lake sailors may be exempt if nobody monitors 16.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - going "home" in a couple of weeks! Hope I remember how to sail!

Edited by - redviking on 02/08/2009 21:29:33

GaryB
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USA
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Response Posted - 02/08/2009 : 22:02:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Safety Curmudgeon ON! WTF!???? Line of sight is right! Full power radio wired to the batteries with an antenna to the mast! If you don't have it, get off of the water until you do! When you are in a bad way, you don't want to have to go forward and haul some rinkydinky antenna aloft.

Sten

DPO Zephyr - '82 C25, FK, SR
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - going "home" in a couple of weeks! Hope I remember how to sail!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sten,

I was only joking about hauling the antenna to the top of the mast in an emergency! As someone else mentioned, it's not that hard to drop the mast and do it right.

What make/model radio/antenna do you use on Lysistrata? Do you like it? If you were going to replace your radio/antenna would you go with a different make/model and why?

Edited by - GaryB on 02/08/2009 22:02:58

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 06:11:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(In the aforementioned incident - Coasties were over 2.5 hours away as they would have deployed from Station Baltimore.)

Sten

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are CG stations at Annapolis and Oxford, and an auxiliary at Solomons. I don't disagree with the VHF recommendation. I also highly recommend ICOM with a 3' mast-top whip.

Edited by - Even Chance on 02/09/2009 06:13:03

Prospector
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 08:47:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Ditto what the others said about the masthead antenna. One of the nice things about our boats is that it is easy to drop the mast. Putting the antenna up there will greatly increase your range. While you are at it be sure to use high quality coax and fittings. We use an iCom 304 VHF and are very happy with it. It is hooked up to our GPS chartplotter for full-DSC capabilities. That is another recommendation I would have for anyone cruising.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Randy,

What is the connection between your VHF and the GPS? My VHF Standard Horizon Eclipse) has 3 bare wires, and for reasons that I cannot explain will not talk to my gps (3 bare wires on data link). Was yours plug and play, or was there a learning curve to get things working?

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 08:54:54

Gary - Keep in mind that an AP can chew up batteries PDQ. I don't know how long range your version of long range is. I sail all day (and a few tmes all night) by hand. If I need a quick break from the tiller, I lash it in position (susally with a dockline looped around one of the aft cleats, then a rolling hitch on th etiller, then properly belayed on th eother stern cleat.) I will get the tiller in position. wait a few minutes while watchin gthe compass to be sure it is holding course, then go forward to do my work, and return to the tiller.

Under power I have help the boat on course with this arrangement for upwards of half an hour. On a bad day under sail, not for more than a couple minutes.

If I were in your position, I would opt for a good VHF. As my mechanic once said, Its one problem when you can't go, its altogether another problem when you can't stop. I see (one person's perspective) not being able to call for help as a bigger issue than not being able to take a brealk from the tiller. Then again, I don't sail on the ocean.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 11:02:45

What make/model radio/antenna do you use on Lysistrata? Do you like it? If you were going to replace your radio/antenna would you go with a different make/model and why?

Standard Horizon with DSC and a cockpit ram mic. On my C25 we had a speaker in the cockpit for the radio and the mike was close enough to use. The RAM mike wouldn't transmit due to water intrusion, even though it is waterproof and Standard Horizon repaired it for $35.00 even though it it an older model and is no longer sold. Great service!

We have two handhelds, one of which is a Standard Horizon as well, and we have two emergency antennas in case something doesn't work going all the way up.

There are CG stations at Annapolis and Oxford, and an auxiliary at Solomons.

Yeah, not sure what was going on that day. I was not aware of an Annapolis station, I have never seen a Coastie in that area. The info we were given that day sounded a bit strange, but perhaps assets were allocated somewhere else.

sten

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 12:00:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(In the aforementioned incident - Coasties were over 2.5 hours away as they would have deployed from Station Baltimore.)

Sten

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are CG stations at Annapolis and Oxford, and an auxiliary at Solomons. I don't disagree with the VHF recommendation. I also highly recommend ICOM with a 3' mast-top whip.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One reason I thought about doing the cell phone was we have a CG station in Galveston and the CG helicopters are based out of Ellington Field which is no more than 5 minutes flying time from the part of Galveston Bay where we sail. They are always out over the bay somewhere along with several CG boats.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 13:15:54

We always carry our handheld VHF, set on 16 in the cockpit, the WHAM mic is usually clipped to my vest with which I can control the fixed radio. If I've got the WHAM on, I turn off the handhelp to preserve batteries. Saturday it was just the reverse, I had the handheld on while the WHAM was charging. We keep the fixed VHF cycling through 9-13-16-22a-68 (adjustable via the WHAM if necessary). Most traffic is on 13 in our area, at least when it's nearly all commercial (like during the winter). That changes dramatically when the weather warms up & everyone likes to go try out their best CB-slanguage on VHF & rile up the coasties.

We have a charger for the handheld VHF (actually it charges several things, luck of the draw for VDC in port, no deliberate-ness on my part).

We also carry two fully charged cellphones, as well as two FSR radios for boat to shore party comms (we'll probably use the WHAM & fixed VHF in the future, on intercom). We carry a phone charger, as well as spare batteries for the WHAM. Uniden provides a spare tray that takes 3-AAA batteries to drive it. We also have a charger for AA & AAA rechargeable batteries for our various electronics on the boat (FSR radios, backup GPS, etc.).

With port security, ferries, etc. to watch over, the USCG is never very far away, and can get to you in a hurry with their dual Honda 225's if necessary. We see them frequently with an M-60 mounted on the foredeck, I guess they mount that when the threat level climbs high enough to warrant it. I'm sure they have them on board all the time. Last Saturday though, we saw two of them towing a stinkpotter from the mouth of the Duwamish River towards Shilshole, they must have been bored for two of them to be there. I think they had to cut his anchor line, they left a brand new bright orange buoy right where they were putting a line across for the tow. Hopefully the guy can get it back after he gets his boat fixed.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 13:28:37

David,

Have you tried to walk some distance from the boat when you're at the dock to see if the WHAM mic will operate the radio from say 200 feet away? The reason I ask is I'm wondering if I fell overboard if I could still set off the DSC before the boat got out of range. That would be a great safety net if it would work from in the water and a couple of hundred feet away!

Edited by - GaryB on 02/09/2009 13:29:13

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 14:29:55

It's a 2.4GHz device, just like wireless home phones. I think theoretical distance w/ line of sight is around half a mile (that's a guess). I tried to pin Uniden down on this, and they wouldn't specify a distance beyond "the length of your boat". I specifically asked about the 2.4GHz range but they just did some tap dancing around the answer.

Unfortunately, we've only been on day sails since I've installed the new radio, so we haven't had a chance to see how far we can get away from the boat & still control the fixed radio. I suppose I could walk to the end of my dock, probably a hundred yards or so, I just haven't done it.

Assuming you have the half mile to work with, cut that down to 1/4 mile if you're in any kind of chop or swell, rough math gives you about 90 seconds before your boat's out of range at hull speed (I used 7 knots to do the calculation). You might have more if you've got a mast top antenna since your line of sight would be significantly improved, at least in the first couple of minutes, and might improve your chances at continuing contact for several more as you come to the top of the waves you're in. I haven't done any trig on this to figure LOS angles, but it would seem that you -might- have 3-5 minutes to get a mayday call off. There are significant problems with this though, the DSC signal will show where your GPS unit is, not where you're at in the water. However, assuming your GPS is still running, they should be able to use it to reverse the course the boat's sailed & get back to where you where when you went over the side. Of course your position most likely will have changed, but they'll at least have a place to start looking.

Do you have a harness & safety lanyards? Every single cruising author I've read who has an opinion on going overboard says the best way to prevent a MOB is to simply prevent them happening in the first place. If you're tied to your boat, even if you're over the side & dragging in the water, if you initiate DSC, you're right where the GPS unit is. Now, being dragged in the water's no fun (try having your leg tangled in the tow rope behind a speed boat some time & being dragged backwards hanging onto your PFD with just a couple of fingers because it's been pushed over your head by the water rushing by, but that's another story).

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 14:36:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Nautiduck
 Ditto what the others said about the masthead antenna. One of the nice things about our boats is that it is easy to drop the mast. Putting the antenna up there will greatly increase your range. While you are at it be sure to use high quality coax and fittings. We use an iCom 304 VHF and are very happy with it. It is hooked up to our GPS chartplotter for full-DSC capabilities. That is another recommendation I would have for anyone cruising.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Randy,

What is the connection between your VHF and the GPS? My VHF Standard Horizon Eclipse) has 3 bare wires, and for reasons that I cannot explain will not talk to my gps (3 bare wires on data link). Was yours plug and play, or was there a learning curve to get things working?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There was a learning curve but not too steep. I did this about two years ago. Wish I could give you more specifics. If you posted the three wires from each device and their labels (from the user manuals) I bet this forum could help you.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 20:36:42

Based on every one's comments I think my best plan of action is to re-group.

The autopilot is out for now. The limited amount of time I might actually need it vs the cost is not something I can't justify.

I think the very first thing I need to get is an auto-inflate PFD with a lanyard. I have a manual inflate belt type PFD which is comfortable but would do nothing for me if I got knocked unconscious going overboard. Any preferences on a make and model? Mustang any good?

After that I will go for the radio with mast top antenna. I really think I may go for the Uniden because of the wireless mic. I really like that feature.

Sometime later I'll be able to afford the roller furler and new sails.

I really appreciate everyone giving me their comments!

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.