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VHF Radio/Antenna/Autopilot Dilemma

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2009 : 22:16:27

Gary,
I've got a used Davis Tiller Tamer you can have for postage. It's got a chip broken off of it, but it's completely functional. It's not exactly an AP, but it's quite handy, I used one all the time on my San Juan 21.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 07:48:23

I removed my tiller tamer and have used a 4' length of doubled 1/2" latex tubing which seems to perform better in response to wind shifts. It's tied with nylon cord to the cam cleats on the cockpit coaming used by the tiller tamer. Someday I'll pick up an autopilot, I suppose.

I like my auto-inflatable PFD with harness from [url="http://www.landfallnavigation.com/mustangpfd.html"]Landfall[/url]. I promise to change the auto-inflation disc this Spring after its sat on the boat for 2 1/2 years.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 08:37:42

David - I appreciate the offer. I think I'm going to try a new technique on raising my sails. Instead of waiting until I'm actually out in the bay where it's ussually rough I'm going to try and get the sails up in the calm waters of the Kemah Channel just before I get out into the bay. If that doesn't work I'll email you for the tiller tamer.

John - Which model do you have? Is it comfortable around your neck?

What's the difference in a Type III and a Type V PFD. They look the same. Which type do I want?

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 09:17:18

This is the type V PFD I got from Landfall. It is yellow when opened and has a built-in whistle on a lanyard. I got one extra inflation kit for $25.
Automatic 1F Inflatable PFD w/ Harness
Deluxe Adult Vest USCG Type V exceeds ORC requirements
Mustang Model # MD3084
uses Automatic CO2 Re-Arm Kit #SMA7202
Colors: Red w/ carbon or Navy w/ carbon
#SMD3084List Price $315.00Only $219.95

I always wear a long-sleeve shirt or jacket, or more, and the PFD is very comfortable and doesn't interfere with arm motion or leaning back against the high-back seats I have.

The type V must be worn to be legal, since it autoinflates upon immersion, and is of little use if you don't have it on. Here is some info on USCG regulations for Types I - V:

Personal flotation devices (PFD) or Lifejackets.

One approved Type I, II or III PFD for each person on board or being towed on water skis, etc.; and one throwable Type IV device. ( A type V PFD may be used in lieu of any wearable PFD, if approved for the activity in which it is being used. A TYPE V HYBRID MUST be worn to be legal.) . A type IV lifejacket is required for all boats over 16ft, which is a Throwable flotation device. NOTE; Coast Guard requires special PFD's for children under 12 and wearing them on deck is mandatory, whereas for Adults wearing is only recommended.

Types of PFD valid for USCG regulations.

Type I PFD, or Offshore Life Jacket provides the most buoyancy. It is effective for all waters, especially open, rough, or remote waters where rescue may be delayed. It is designed to turn most unconscious wearers in the water to a face-up position. The TYPE I come in two sizes: Adult size provides at least 22 pounds of buoyancy, the child size, 11 pounds, minimum.

Type II PFD, Near-Shore Buoyancy Vest is intended for calm, inland water or where there is a good chance of quick rescue. This type will turn some unconscious wearers to a face-up position. The turning action is not as pronounced nor as effective as a TYPE I. An adult size provides at least 15.5 pounds buoyancy; a medium child size provides 11 pounds. Infant and small child sizes each provide at least 7 pounds buoyancy.

Type III PFD, or flotation aid is good for calm, inland water, or where there is a good chance of quick rescue. It is designed so that wearers can put themselves in a face-up position in the water. The wearer may have to tilt their head back to avoid turning face down. TYPE III has the same minimum buoyancy as a TYPE II PFD. Float coats, fishing vests, and vests designed for various water sports are examples. Some Type III PFDs are designed to be inflated upon entering the water.

Type IV PFD, or Throwable Device is intended for calm, inland water with heavy boat traffic, where help is always present. It is designed to be thrown to a person in the water and grasped and held by the user until rescued. It is not designed to be worn. Type IV devices include buoyant cushions, ring buoys, and horseshoe buoys.

Type V PFD, or Special Use Device is intended for specific activities and may be carried instead of another PFD only if used according to the approval condition on the label. Some Type V devices provide hypothermia protection. Varieties include deck suits, work vests, board sailing vests, and Hybrid PFDs.

Type V Hybrid Inflatable PFD is the least bulky. It contains a small amount of inherent buoyancy and an inflatable chamber and must be worn when underway to be acceptable. This type is designed to automatically inflate upon entering the water.

Edited by - JohnP on 02/10/2009 09:20:25

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 10:15:37

We both have type V auto-inflators as well, with built in harnesses. Both are from WM, but different manufacturers, so I have to keep two different types of re-arm kits around. I don't recall offhand who makes them, but they're both branded as WM.

Both of them are pretty comfortable to wear, even in the summer. I have two point lanyards on both (3' & 6' webbing) with safety carabiners at the far end, and a snap shackle where you attach to your vest. That way if you have to, you can simply pop the snap shackle & you're released (say if you were dragging in the water). I also keep an extra whistle, light/beacon wrapped up inside the vest & attached to the vest so they can't disappear when it fires. I also have a good locking climbing carabiner attached to each vest.

Edited by - on

Patrice C25
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 11:04:15

Hi,
I would also go for security first, if you need better range of communication VHF, then for better sailing, new sail or furler. Then, what I call luxury, AP, etc.
If you need to leave the tiller for short periode, a tiller break is not expensive and very handy. I have one and like it, you can go inside and get something and come back.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 11:28:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 
Last Saturday though, we saw two of them towing a stinkpotter from the mouth of the Duwamish River towards Shilshole, they must have been bored for two of them to be there. I think they had to cut his anchor line, they left a brand new bright orange buoy right where they were putting a line across for the tow. Hopefully the guy can get it back after he gets his boat fixed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

SOP - Coasties will not hang out while you haul your anchor. As soon as they arrive on scene they will take command of the vessel. I once assisting a runaway and hit the Coasties from my handheld from the Zodiac. Soon they arrived on scene and even though I had reanchored the vessel, they cut the line and started a tow. They also relieved me of my duties, as in "OK thanks, you can go now."

If you have to anchor and wait for the Coasties, get a float ready because you will leave your ground tackle behind. I saw a Frenchman leave 250' of heavy chain and a big CQR once, and the language barrier prevented him from understanding the concept before he let it all go. I borrowed a bumper and tossed my dinghy anchor in the proximity, but alas, the divers found nothing - too much drift?

sten

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 11:34:45

Gary,
I suggest you jump on the Tiller Tamer for the cost of postage. It isn't an autopilot, but it really provides short periods of relief. I was out yesterday with about 110 0f my 150 unfurled with 15 - 20 kts. and gusts to 30; the Tiller Tamer was tightened to provide a little friction and really eased my work load. I could easily put a couple more turns on the knob to dash below for a coke.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 12:38:18

Instead of a tiller tamer, I use the bungee-to-hasp method which allows for easier and faster course correction. I'll use this if I only need a few minutes away from the helm or if I'm doing something with my hands because it allows me to easily make a course correction with my foot/hip/elbow...etc.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 14:29:11

Gary, for future reference, when I was picking a fixed VHF a couple of years ago, I ended up with the Uniden 525... One thing I recall was that compared to the Icom (then), the Uniden drew considerably less amperage in standby (receive) mode. You should check those specs when you're making your choice--it's more important on your sailboat than on my "pot".

Regarding antennas, there was a base-loaded masthead antenna on my C-25, but I might not have chosen that. Maybe you know these things, but there are two points I'll make about VHF:

First, while it doesn't reach very well over the horizon (30 miles or so), that's substantially a function of power--it is not strictly "line-of-sight". Just as waves in the water will bend around an irregular shoreline, radio waves propagate "around and over" things, including the horizon. They just don't bounce off the ionosphere as AM and SW waves do. I can receive USCG VHF transmissions from New Jersey, 130+ miles from here in Mystic. The Coast Guard's towers would have to be something like 5000' tall for that to be "line of sight". In the WM catalog, there's a chart that suggests, using some arbitrary assumptions, that transmissions from an antenna 30' above the water can be received from only about 10-15% further away than from an antenna 10' above the water. They suggest receive range is around 10% different. I've conversed with a pump-out boat 4 miles away on the other side of nearby land that's at least 100' high between him and me. The base of my 8' antenna is about 8' up.

Second, the "reach" of VHF transmission is also a factor of the "gain" of the antenna. That's essentially the degree to which it focuses the signal on a plane perpendicular to the antenna and parallel to the ground. Generally, smaller antennas transmit more of a smaller spherical pattern (lower gain), and larger antennas make a larger, flatter pattern (higher gain). An 8' antenna generally has 6db of gain, and therefore almost twice the horizontal range of a 3' antenna with 3db of gain--just by the way it focuses the signal.

I'm not saying not to put a little antenna on top of the mast--I'm just contending that you don't lose nearly as much as some people think, if anything at all, by putting an 8' antenna on the stern-rail. (BTW, the Coasties have received and transmitted to my handheld from at least 10 miles away--they have pretty sensitive equipment.)

Sarge out and standing by on nine, one-three and one-six.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/10/2009 14:38:00

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 15:28:38

Regarding gain, I agree with Dave regarding their overall performance, but there's something to be said for lower gain spherical-ish propagation versus higher gain more directional propagation of your signal. As your boat heels, a lower gain antenna doesn't lose as much of it's overall performance as a deck mounted higher gain will. Essentially as you're heeled with a higher gain antenna, you're "pointing to the sky" as I've heard it described, your signal's attentuated simply due to it's angle relative to the perpendicular-ish plane of the water. With a lower gain antenna, the affect isn't nearly as great due to the spherical signal. Now, what I haven't seen is how much attentuation goes on, it may be a moot point on our boats due to their relative stubby masts. I simply don't know.

I'm guessing that the USCG isn't regulated like we are to lower powered transceivers, I have picked up Port Angeles from my back yard, about 90 mile away over a couple of ridges.

Also agree about line of sight, you always get some diffraction around stuff. Also, radio in general is better at night, due to...drawing a blank, something to do with the sun, interference with the magnetosphere? Still blanking...grrrr...

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 16:33:38

Personally I think radio is more important. That said, I purchsed the
SOSpenders Inflatable Life Vest With Harness and the SOSP Safety Tether 6' Flex Tether With Wichard Hook & Quick Release. you will still need to consider Jack Lines. Good Luck
Steve A

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 19:23:39

I think I may have found a solution on the VHF antenna issue! Shakespeare makes a 23' antenna that I could mount on the stern of my boat. That would eliminate dropping the mast, stringing coax down the mast, re-stepping the mast, etc... and still having a good transmit height.

I might even be able to put a small sail on it and have the first Yawl Rigged C25 - or actually I guess it would still be a Ketch Rig since the mast is in front of the pintles!!! Just kidding but they do make a 23' antenna!

I've seen several larger sailboats with 8-12' VHF antenna's and no masthead antenna's so I'm thinking it's possible they may work OK in our sailing venue. JimB sails offshore quite a bit and I'm pretty sure he uses an 8' Shakespeare. Much bigger waves than I sail in!

I can't decide what I want to do on the antenna. Everyone has valid points. I need to get the PFD first anyway so I think I'll focus on that for now while doing further research on the antennas. I'm almost 100% sure I'm going with the Uniden radio.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 20:06:57

Lower the mast, mount the antenna, route the coax down the mast, raise the mast again - total elapsed time is less than 3 hours. Plus it gives you a chance to change out the anchor light bulb and inspect the sheeves, Windex and shroud fittings.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 20:32:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 ...but there's something to be said for lower gain spherical-ish propagation versus higher gain more directional propagation of your signal. As your boat heels, a lower gain antenna doesn't lose as much of it's overall performance as a deck mounted higher gain will...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Here's a picture from WM...

This suggests that a 6db antenna might lose some range directly abeam when heeled to 20+ degrees. Nothing is lost forward or aft(ward?) except due to severe fore-aft pitching. In any case, the shapes shown here are not absolute limits--just illustrations that compare the areas of strongest signals. I once found that my adjustable antenna mount had let the 6db antenna fall on the hardtop (completely horizontal). I had been communicating with a couple of boats and bridge operators over a mile away with that configuration, so some signal was projecting way outside of that diagram. In other words, each of those shapes fades out in all directions.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2009 : 21:21:14

When you transmit does the signal leave the antenna at the tip or along the entire length? I assume the majority leaves the tip of the antenna.

Edited by - GaryB on 02/10/2009 21:21:48

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 09:03:14

Don't really know, but since the length of the antenna seems to affect the propagation pattern, it would seem the whole antenna is involved. Different lengths are classified as "half-wave", 5/8-wave, etc... but not in proportion to size as you might expect, so it's a little mysterious to me.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 11:12:50

Does anyone know if the West Marine Branded PFD's that are made by Mustang are exactly the same as the Mustang Branded PFD's.

Before I call West Marine does anyone know if they will match the Shopping Cart price on an item?

I found a Mustang MD3184 PFD with Harness at Hodges Marine for $226.00 (shopping cart price not MAP) which is the best price I've found so far. They are out of stock until 03/11/09. west Marine sell the same vest with their logo for $299.00.

Anyone ever done business with Hodges Marine?

Edited by - GaryB on 02/11/2009 11:14:24

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 11:53:18

I don't know if they'll match the Hodge's price, but they've matched prices for me from items listed on Defender. Defender has the Mustang MD3184 for $227.23.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 12:23:15

WM will match any price on an item if you can produce an ad or webpage showing the item & price. A little bit of research can reap great rewards when it comes to this. I've managed to get things from WM for 1/5 the price they were asking.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 12:25:52

I think my WMs are SOSpenders, but cleverly slightly different models so they don't have to match prices.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4316 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 13:45:25

I called them and they will match prices brand for brand. If you want to match Mustang to Mustang they will do it but if you want to go Mustang to WM they won't. In this case they carry there own WM branded MD3184 (exactly the same as Mustang but with West Marine on the label). They will not match the price against that product but they will special order a Mustang MD3184 and match the price. If they have the Mustang branded item on the shelf they will also match the price.

JohnP - Have you ever had any problems with the MD3084 inflating inadvertantly? I'm just wondering if the extra $20-30 is worth it to get the hydrostatic inflation mechanism vs the regular. It appears the PFD's are identical except for the inflation mechanism.

Edited by - GaryB on 02/11/2009 13:46:13

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 13:58:27

Gary,
It has never inflated except when I unfolded it once and tested the blow-tube and discovered the whistle and the inside (inflated) bright yellow color.

Edit - The main reason to get an auto-inflating PFD is to protect yourself if you hit your head and fall overboard unconscious.

Edited by - JohnP on 02/11/2009 14:01:11

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 15:03:41

No one has mentioned the reasons for putting the antenna on the stern pulpit, like I have done.

(1) it's easy
(2) it's cheaper
(3) you can service it
(4) you can get a much better 8 foot antenna
(5) you can reduce weight aloft
(6) you can hook your handheld up to it in an emergency with a patch cord
(7) Transpac, etc. requires an antenna NOT on the mast (dismasted, you still can communicate).
(8) nice place to hang your class flag
(9) your long coax run to the top of the mast significantly decreases RF power unless you have expensive low loss cable.

6 DB antenna on the rail, 3 DB antenna aloft, I get just as good range and signal with my rail mount.

Frankly I would not leave home without either: tiller pilot AND 2 VHF radios (fixed and handheld). Plus I always carry my cell phone.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2009 : 15:34:50

My PFD has inflated itself once, I think from condensation/high humidity inside the boat. I just came down to the boat one time to find it deflated on the "settee" of my San Juan 21 (they don't really have settee's, just a high spot in the shell liner). When I first saw it, I thought the boat had been robbed, but then I figured out what happened. It's never happened since, and SL is a much drier boat than a SJ could ever hope to be.

Edited by - on

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