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Bottom questions

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skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/15/2009 : 05:07:28

I'm new to posting on the site, though have followed dialogue and threads on the site with interest for the past 2 years. My '86 TR/FK, Ballanato, is on the hard for her first paint job since I bought her in '06. The PO had had an excellent job done at a yard in North Carolina with ablative paint over the barrier coat. There are some blisters now - especially on the keel - most of which look pretty superficial. I'm thinking of switching to VC-17 this time to bring her racing speed up a notch. I'd like to hear any words of wisdom about how best to proceed and wondered about fairing guides and tips for handling the keel. I couldn't find much about this on the site in old posts, and would like to hear any useful pointers.

Jim Crane

Ballanato, 25' TR/FK
Leesburg, AL

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 07:59:07

I can't help you about VC-17 - others will chime in shortly - but I did want to welcome you to the forum and to the Association. As you know there is a wealth of information here, worth far more than the $22 annual dues. sounds like you and I bought our C-25's around the same time. Where do you keep your boat?
I'll read with interest what others say also, since I too am thinking about using VC-17 for my next bottom job. Right now I've got a different hard finish paint, Interlux Ultra, on her and it's holding up very well.

Edited by - dmpilc on 02/15/2009 08:01:53

skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/15/2009 : 09:40:51

Hi David
I keep the boat at the Rome Sailing Club on Lake Weiss in northeast AL - fairly light air most of the time. I've been to PPYC before - I almost bought a C-27 there before finding 'Ballanato' in eastern NC. I have heard good things about Interlux Ultra, but most of the folks in our club are VC-17 disciples.

Jim
1986 TR/FK # 5340 "Ballanato"

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 21:22:36

Jim,

Most of the boats at my marina have the VC-17 on them because they all race. My research on bottom paints helped me in deciding to use Micron Extra. I do not race, and I wanted the longest lasting, least maintenance paint.

Keep reading and asking questions. Try doing a google search on the bottom paints at the manufacturers website to acquire additional information.

I remember reading charts that had comparisons of different types of paints.

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 21:43:16

The racers are sure to jump in soon and provide you with the VC-17 answers. But until then, here's my story:

I am also one that uses an ablative type of paint. Actually, I used a copolymer, Micron XT. It works very similar to ablatives providing multi-year protection. The reason I chose an ablative/copolymer, is that I leave my boat in the water all year-round and only take it out anually for a $75 pressure wash. In my neck of the woods, the marina I would go to have the boat hauled out, placed in the mtn yard for a week and repainted would charge me a lot for that work. Since I do not race, the decision is an easy one seeing how the last multi-year paint job lasted about 5 years between the PO and I. Since last painting, it has now been 2 years and the paint was fine during the pressure wash this past Fall.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2009 : 23:32:28

Jim, I look forward to seeing you next time you come to PPYC. Were you up here for a regatta? What boat were you sailing?

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skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 10:50:33

Thanks everyone for the input. I certainly see the advantage in the longer lasting ablative paints - I was happy about the low maintainace side of it, but do enjoy racing. Fortunately we don't have to pay fees to get boats in and out or even to use the lift. I'd really like to know what, if anything, to do to the keel in the way of fairing, etc., while the boat is out of the water.
Dave, I used to live in Nashville, and still get up there a bit to visit the folks. I grew up on a Chrysler 22 on Old Hickory Lake. My cousin, Rob Montgomery, may be in your club and I hope to sail
with him some time when I'm up for a visit. It would be great to meet you when I'm up there.

Jim, '86 C-25 FK/TR #5340 "Ballanato"

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 11:22:18

OK, here goes.
VC 17 is a paint that is used by a lot of people for a lot of reasons, it began as a racing paint but after the addition of Biolage it became a general purpose paint. There are important issues unique to each of us that determines the best paint, I will explain why I would never use anything other than VC 17, (if possible).

Consideration 1 Does it work? VC 17 is the best performing bottom paint at my venue, a simple powerwash after 6 months in very fertile water provides a hull clean enough to repaint. In the spring we simply wipe down the hull and paint.

Consideration 2 Can you do your own work? Some places require marina workers to haul and work on your boat making annual bottom painting expensive and schedule dependant. We have a free lift and everyone does all of their own maintenance.

Consideration 3 How easy is it to work with? Holy crap! This stuff is the BEST, no prep in the spring other than a wipe down, no sanding! Just a little tape at the waterline a small foam paint roller and 30 minutes later you are done, 15 minutes later you can launch. People routinely paint their boat on the trailer, hoist it to paint the bunk areas, let it hang a few minutes to dry and drop it in the water.

Caveat, if you have years worth of that asphalt textured crap called ablative paint then you have a major issue to deal with before you can use VC 17. I had my '82 hull blasted with soda powder to get rid of the horrible ablative paint. It was one layer thick over a newly finished barrier coat and it still was an abomination compared to VC 17. Hard paints are much nicer than ablatives and do not need to be removed before going to VC 17.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 12:13:07

Jim,

When I purchased my boat, the bottom was painted with who knows what, and it was in horrible condition. It was thick, peeling, flaking, lumpy, and generally looking like the surface of the moon. Underneath this paint, was an epoxy barrier coat. Not wanting to disturb the barrier coat with chemical strippers, I opted to scrape/sand to remove the paint. After scraping the bulk of the paint with a pull type scraper, which had the corners rounded to prevent gouging, I then sanded the entire barrier coated bottom smooth. I did have to repair a few blisters on the keel. For these, I removed as much material as needed, wire wheeled, the exposed cast iron, then primed te bare metal and filled and faired with some kind of marine bondo type filler. After all of the bottom prep was finished, I put on several coats of VC-Tar over the existing barrier coat then followed up with VC-17M paint.

The scraping job was somewhat brutal but as they say, "what does not kill you, only makes you stronger".

Good luck!

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 13:34:50

Jim,

Ahhh, forget what they said!!!

Are you a true sailing artist?

Do you appreciate the exotic beauty of a naturally aged keel with its rainbow-colored ablative paint on an old, iron keel? Then just slap on some stuff, like a friend of mine does, and go sailing...

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 17:58:53

In regards to removing ablative paint before applying VC-17 and ...that ablative paint is an abomination, I think that is a bit harsh and does not do justice to many that use ablative/copolymer paints with no issues at all. First of all, there really is no reason to rant on ablative paints. The originator wants to know about VC-17, so why not just provide that info. The fact is that when changing from one paint ot another, there are sometimes incompatibilities. The paint mfrs usually have a chart that describes what treatment is reqd when switching from one paint to another. I think it is pretty much a no brainer that if an ablative paint is on the boat and a hard paint is going to go over it, in almost all instances, the softer ablative paint is going to have to be removed. The nature of the ablative paint is that it comes off with time and so it would make no sense to put a hard paint over it. But paint compatibility should be considered whenever switching paints. I would look into that whether going from an ablative to a copolymer or from one hard paint to another. If a mfr does not have a chart that details compatibility, then unless you know others that can advise you from past experience, may be best to send an EMail to the mfr and see what if anything you get in response. No harm trying.

I sail in freshwater and slime is generally the only issue. Going 5 seasons with ablative paint with just a $75 pressure wash annually and then only a pressure wash before copolymer paint was applied - no sanding and paint looks fine...is far from the extreme issues mentioned with ablatives.

I do not have a good photo of a completed paint job but the one below shows what a 5 year ablative paint looks like on a well maintained boat. The new copolymer was just starting to be applied up near the waterline and then working down from there. The new paint has now been on for over 2 years and with no peeling, etc issues. Yes...ablatives/copolymers are soft paints and will come off on your finger. But they do have applications especially for non-racers. They charge $200/wk to have a boat placed in a nearby marina's mtn yard and rather than take days off from work, I had them paint it. The cost of the hauling in & out, pressure washing, travel lift to the mtn yard and back and the painting was something like $1000. or more. For 5 years, (if I were to do it every year...then I would probably do the painting sometimes myself), the cost with them doing the painting would be well over $5000 for hard paint. Ablatives/copolymers and pressure washing annually would be $450 for 5 years. $5000 vs $450 for approximately 75-100 days (each year..year-round) of daysailing and an occasional overnighter and no racing......and smooth paint....the hard paint annually is a hard sell.

But if you do the painting yourself and on top of that the hauling, etc is free or low cost...then a hard paint sounds like a great way to go racing or not. Many years ago when I use to sail on Long Island, I always painted annually with a hard paint. I do not even think ablatives were made back then but I would have gone with hard paint. You just have to evaluate your circumstances, extent of racing and the waters you sail in. Unlike others, I would never rule out the many possibilities we all can take advantage - It just depends on your circumstances.

Edited by - OLarryR on 02/19/2009 18:04:30

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2009 : 18:26:35

Pictures always tell a better story than words.

Here is a shot of the keel before a good bottom paint job.

And here is the entire bottom after giving it the attention it deserved. I used the Micron Extra.

Edited by - on

skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2009 : 19:12:25

I appreciate all the paint input. It sounds like the hard paint may be best for me as we don't have to pay to have boats pulled or for lift time and I do enjoy the racing. I was under the boat today draining some blisters - which are mainly on the keel. With the need to deal with that problem anyway, it's as good a time as any for changing from ablative to hard paint.

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