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Furling Genoa Size

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skrenz
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USA
351 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/03/2009 : 15:55:25

For those of you out there that have a furling Genoa, I'm wondering what size Genoa works best for you. Is it a 130 or a 150? I'm sure this is dependent upon the kinds of winds that you generally sail in.

The related question is, what kind of pointing performance drop off do you experience when the Genoa is partly rolled up? If there is a decrease, is it decreased on one tack verses another? Theoretically it would seem that it should sail better, with the Genoa rolled partially up. on the tack that has the cleaner leading edge than on the rolled side of the sail. But then again, this isn't theory.

On Elan we presently have a 150 hank on Genoa. We want to convert to a furling Genoa which means that we will modify the sail one way or another. I'm hoping that the 150 will work without more than replacing the luff with continuous luff support tape. We presently sail on inland lakes which can get very gusty very quickly. But we will be sailing in the gulf by Corpus Christi soon. I just don't want to find myself with consistently too much sail causing a big performance drop off because the sail is partially rolled up and doesn't sail well on one tack.

Steve Krenz
`Elan
1978 SR/SK #482
Santa Fe, New Mexico

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 16:01:34

This is a great question, we're putting a 130 furling genny on ours this weekend, we also sail in an inland lake in north Texas. This was part of the deal when I bought our boat (He'd already bought the kit) and I look forward to seeing the responses from the rest of the forum on this, so I'm marking my spot. :)

I also heard that you either want to use the whole thing or 50%, but not any other variations. I wonder if this is accurate.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 17:39:26

I'm sure it would matter to racers, but it doesn't change much for cruising. I roll counter clockwise, so when the outside is clean, the engine is low. I think having a 100 pound engine high and windward makes at least as much difference on the opposite tack. When you are partially furled, you have more wind to work with. Not really an issue unless you are racing.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 17:56:05

There has been much discussion of this in the past. When I purchased my furler I went with a 135 as a compromise of sorts. I had a 155 before that and it would overpower the boat (for me) at winds above 15MPH. Others felt comfortable up to 20MPH. The 135 works excellent for me and whenever I have partially furled it to overcome overpowering it has worked extremely well. Two wraps will just about reduce it to a 110. The 155 I had was a hank-on deck sweeper and the 135 has a raised foot to accommodate furling. The raised foot, while decreasing overall sail area, allows for greater visibility when underway. As Dave mentions, when you need to furl, performance is not much of an issue since you have plenty of wind.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 18:20:17

I have a somewhat blown out 150

That works great in the light summer breezes on Long Island Sound.
But in the heavier spring and fall air I am constantly furling it so...
I will be buying 135 for the beginning and end of the season.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 18:54:52

The best all around sail is a 135%. Have your 150 cut down and have the clew raised so it is about 18 inches above the lifeline.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 18:58:52

My present boat has a 140% roller furling jib. I sail the Chesapeake Bay and love to race, but don't race my own boat often.

The Chesapeake has a lot of light air, so I wanted a little more than 130-135%. I didn’t want a 150-155, because it wouldn’t point well when partially furled. The 140 has nearly the area of the 150, but it doesn’t create nearly such a big roll on the furler when partially furled, so it points reasonably well. In really light air, if I need more sail area than the 140, I have a cruising chute that will get the boat going much better than a 150 would. The mainsail with two sets of reef cringles, the 140 and the cruising chute cover the whole range of winds that I’m likely to encounter on the Bay, and make it easy to singlehand whenever I’m sailing shorthanded.

I haven’t noticed any significant performance difference between starboard and port tack, but you’re probably correct that there’s some small difference. If I don’t align my inboard prop, the prop often causes a big difference between port and starboard tack.

If the genoa needs to be deeply furled in big winds, the 140 creates a big enough roll to affect it’s pointing ability, but not nearly so much as if it was a 150. The boat still points reasonably well. Besides, when it’s blowing that hard, you don’t have a lot of choice.

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 19:23:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 The best all around sail is a 135%. Have your 150 cut down and have the clew raised so it is about 18 inches above the lifeline.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting that Jim who sails many miles in what I assume is light to moderate breezes 7-15 knots, please correct me Jim, recommends a 135.
That reaffirms my suspicion that a 135 may be the best all round sail for a standard C25.
I intend to find the best price for a dacron 135.
Recommendations?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 19:32:51

I bought my 135 (hank on) from National Sail Supply in Brooksville, FL. It's a full hoist, 5 oz. cloth sail. I've only used it a few times so far (we've had a lot of very light air sailing days since I bought it), but I like it. The folks at National were great to work with, and the price was good. The sail is a Rolly Tasker.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/03/2009 19:33:29

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 21:12:06

My 135 is a North Sail from Cruising Direct which sells "off the shelf" sails from North Sails. They are now known as North Sails Direct. It is a very well made sail and still nice and crisp after three years on a furler. I have seen Rolly Tasker mains up close and was impressed with their quality as well. Either one would be a good choice. If you have a CDI Flexible Furler they require a #6 Luff tape which is standard for the off the shelf C25 furlers from North. NSD also sells the CDI Furler if you have to purchase the sail and the furler. Whichever way you go make sure you have the proper luff tape for your furler.

http://www.cruisingdirect.com/cd/CD_catalog.taf?_function=list& category=11& subcategory=08

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/03/2009 : 22:12:17

I think the 135% is the right headsail. I also bought my Rolly Tasker from National Sail. Good price, friendly people.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 08:51:03

LOL, maybe mine is a 135, I'll find out today.

So using a roller furler effects my ability to point on certain tacks? Should I leave my sails as hank ons? I just thought the roller furler would be way more convenient and adjustable in the variable winds we get on the lake.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 11:19:32

I was told mine was a 130--it was on a roller. There were a few occasions when rolled it a few turns as the quickest way to power down, but my preferred method was to reef the main or drop it altogether--sometimes I never put it up. The 130 alone sailed beautifully in really blustery, gusty stuff--much faster and with much less heel than the main alone. I would only recommend a 155 to racers--I'm not convinced it's better in light air for the non-racer, especially off the wind, because it's harder to keep shaped.

Your 150 might need to be re-cut for the roller, as Jim says, to raise the clew. If the clew is too low and you add any type of sun protection strip on the foot and leach (Sunbrella or treated Dacron), the foot won't be able to roll up smoothly.

You're obviously sensitive to effects on performance--I think you'll find in winds under 25 that managing your mains'l area, maybe with two sets of reef points, gives you better performance than partially rolling the genny. Move the sheet cars back in heavier air, to flatten the lower area and let the top twist off. She'll run like a deer... well, maybe like a pony.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 11:47:06

A hank on 150 will definitely need to be recut for use on a furler, and not just to raise the clew, although that will happen. The luff on a furling 150 has to be shorter because of the space required for the furling drum, etc. Not necessarily a problem with a 135, unless it is full hoist.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 18:15:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 A hank on 150 will definitely need to be recut for use on a furler, and not just to raise the clew, although that will happen.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On the subject of recutting a 150, if you raise the clew and foot will that in itself decrease the area to make it more of a 135? If not, then do you remove from the leech or the luff? Yes, I know, it would be better all around to simply get a new 135 but thats not in the cards. Sewing is.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 18:35:43

John, under normal conditions I fly a 155. I have 2, both deck sweepers, full hoist, both hank on. I also have

2 spinnakers 0.5 oz and 0.75 oz 3/4 size
2 155s dacron one racing, one every day
145 mylar
135 dacron
125 mylar
110 dacron
60 dacron

The best all around sail for a non racer is a 135, especially on a SR. On a TR I would go a little smaller.

My 110 probably points best. I love the 110 and single reefed main in a blow! Good to 20 knots+. Please give me that this weekend!

God help you downwind in light air with just a 110 up, however.

When on a long single handed cruise, for example 200 miles upwind to the Channel Islands (known for big air) I usually leave the 155s at home and take 3/4 spin, 135, 110, and 60. I know the 135 will be used most and if its light on the trip home I can pop the chute.

I want to buy a used mylar/laminate 155 deck sweeper.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 21:32:52

My boat came with a furling rig 110 & 150. I sail on the upper Potomac River near Wash, DC and the winds during the summer are oftentimes 5, 5-10 mph and during the other seasons, 10-15mph with occasionally higher winds. Based on my sailing experiences with both sails, when I replaced the sails last year, I bought new sails from Quantum - a new main and a 150 furling genoa. These sails cost a good bit ~ $2500. Quantum came down from Annapolis, MD and took measurements aboard my boat and then custom-made the sails out of Dacron Challenge High Aspect matl which is less prone to stretch than the Dacron Grade(s) used by many other sailmakers (Challenge Performance & High Modulus). Mack Sails is another quality sailmaker that generally makes their Dacron sails out of Challenge High Aspect matl.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 21:43:25

In the North Sails Direct link above, bothe the 135 and 150 furling sails have a luff of 28.5' while the hank-on 150 has a luff of 29.5'. So both furling sails (the 135 must be full hoist) have a luff 1' shorter; that's the space required by the furling drum and other related hardware. The foot on the 135 furler is 2' shorter than the 150 furler. If I wasn't going to race the boat, I think I would opt for the 135.

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/04/2009 21:45:46

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 21:49:39

JimB, you just missed a 150 mylar on ebay, a Waters sail. I think it sold for $850, like new. wish I had had the $ to bid on it.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 22:25:37

Steve: There's more than a little "sewing" involved--there's some serious reconstructing--the luff wire to go into the furler, foam to help shape a partially furled sail, the new clew, sun protection for the leach and foot, etc... I'd look hard at the market for moderately-priced sails. Unless your 150 is in very good condition, I question whether the cost of that reconstruction is worth it.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/04/2009 22:43:16

Walt Oler
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/04/2009 : 22:45:20

Steve, we recently moved a C25 TR/FK with a furling 135 jib to Corpus. When we first joined the forum, Derek Crawford advised that the wind blows in Corpus and that we wouldn't need a 150 Genoa. So far, I would have to agree. The last two times out were all with the first reef and 10% furling on the jib.

Incidently, the PO of our boat was in Albuquerque. When you get to Corpus, look us up - slip 93, pier R.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2009 : 09:57:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Steve: There's more than a little "sewing" involved--there's some serious reconstructing--the luff wire to go into the furler, foam to help shape a partially furled sail, the new clew, sun protection for the leach and foot, etc... I'd look hard at the market for moderately-priced sails. Unless your 150 is in very good condition, I question whether the cost of that reconstruction is worth it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I appreciate your caution however this will not be the first time I have sown sails myself. This will probably be number four. Parts for this conversion, like pre-made luff tape, are readily available from Sailrite along with good hints and instructions. I've given the question of adding the sun protection strips some thought. Not sure I'm going to go that way. Rather I plan to install a furling "sock" which basically zips on and is pulled up with the spinnaker halyard. The question of shaping foam is an interesting one.

For me the real question comes down to whether or not the basic belly configuration of a 150 Genoa will be messed up by removing material off of the foot. This 150 I have is a real deck sweeper. Yes, there is considerable time and effort involved in sewing and hand sewing and setting grommets but quite frankly, this is truly a time verses money situation. Right now I have more time than money. For my sailing situation, its either reconfigure the Genoa I have to set up a furling situation, that's what the admiral wants, or buy a 110 jib. For really light air I already have a asymmetric spinnaker so its the heavier air I'm trying to deal with.

Of course, this is why I put the question to the forum in the first place. Even discounting the labor involved, parts from Sailrite add up. I will need to compare reconstruction costs to the cost of "moderately-priced" sails. If it ends up costing close in materials to the cost of a new(er) sail, then its a no brainer. I ask the forum then, what is a price range for either a new or a good condition used furling 135 Genoa?

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 03/06/2009 : 11:44:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by skrenz
 I've given the question of adding the sun protection strips some thought. Not sure I'm going to go that way. Rather I plan to install a furling "sock" which basically zips on and is pulled up with the spinnaker halyard.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The use of furling socks seems to me to be counter to the whole idea of a furling headsail system,...convenience.

Even with free labor, I would carefully weigh the costs of remanufacturing a used, hank on, genoa deck sweeper (and making/buying a furling sock) against buying a new, purpose built furling genoa. You might make out better selling the 150 outright then applying those funds towards the purchase of a new furling 135.

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crcalhoon
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USA
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Response Posted - 03/06/2009 : 12:23:04

I dunno'. I used to have a furling sock--came with the boat--and I got to where I really liked it. It's no trouble at all, a minute or so each way, up and down. You have to keep an eye on it, it will flog pretty bad in much wind, so you lash it with bungee cords or something and if the winds get to high, I have been known to take mine down. Pros and cons, I guess.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
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Response Posted - 03/06/2009 : 12:48:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcalhoon
 I dunno'. I used to have a furling sock--came with the boat--and I got to where I really liked it. It's no trouble at all, a minute or so each way, up and down. You have to keep an eye on it, it will flog pretty bad in much wind, so you lash it with bungee cords or something and if the winds get too high, I have been known to take mine down.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Putting it up, taking it down, keeping an eye on it, flogging, lashing it with bungee's, taking it down when the winds get too high,...Ya know, you're kinda making my point.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2009 : 13:10:26

I never used a sock, but to me the "convenience" factor of roller furling has more to do with when you're out there--not having to luff up, dash up to the foredeck, get whipped by the sheets and the clew, pull the sail down, keep it out of the water, and keep it from going partway back up the forestay in a blow. With the roller, you furl under way from the cockpit--zip, and it's gone! Back at the slip, getting the sock up and down seems like a relative non-event--not much different from putting on the mains'l cover.

I wonder, however, if in heavy wind it would tend to chafe the leach and foot of the rolled-up sail...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/06/2009 13:11:39

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