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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Wing vs fin vs swing

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:08:41

Greetings from a past member,

Anyone know what years/models have the wing, verses the fin verses the swing? I am looking for the later model but need maximum pointing ability!!!

Steve Madsen
aka OJ

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:28:20

Welcome back Steve!

Fin keels were built in every year of the C25 model run. Swingers were built until the early 1980's, when the wing keel became Catalina's shoal draft version.

The swinger is generally considered to point a little better than the fin, but I believe the difference, if any, is so slight as to be insignificant. IMHO, the fin is the all-around better choice, in terms of sailing qualities as well as its ruggedness. The wing sails well, but it can't point with the others.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:43:20

Having a fin, I am sometimes jealous of the folks with wing keels. Sorry guys, but I don't have the discipline to keep up on swing keel stuuf, and would hate the consequences of the cable letting go.

Even though a wing can't point the way my boat does, I would trade that off for the ability to trailer launch. My boat may be faster on the water, but yours can do 60 mph on the highway...

Edited by - on

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:46:37

Consideration of maintenance and launching? Salt water use? Swing keel can launch in about 30" of water at the ramp.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 09:59:41

Jim, I don't think you understand. I have been "working" on my electrical since last November. So far I haven't been able to figure out the step where you solder 2 wires together (Thanks God for the guy who discovered crimps).

My electrical has cost me about 7 cases of beer (per crimp) and I limit myself to 2 bottles a day.

Now if I had to add swing keel maintenance to that...

My motto is "Avoid moving parts wherever possible."

Edited by - Prospector on 03/11/2009 10:00:15

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:07:15

Yes, a wing is appealing as far as low-to-no maintenance (kind of cool looking too!) My home waters is a rather long and narrow lake - hence the need for close pointing.

Good thought re draft - especially in shallow spots on Chesapeake or launching in unfamiliar ports. I too am leary of the swing but it does offer versitility . . .

hmmmm

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:23:06

Wing is to swing as electricity is to whale oil

Wing launches in the same water as a swing. Flat floor on wing!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 10:56:19

Will you be racing on that lake? The pointing difference would be significant to a racer, but I wonder if it's enough to be significant for getting from one end of your lake to the other. Jim Baumgart has posted on his experience sailing SR/FK alongside a TR/WK in various conditions... You might be able to find those threads.

The wing replaced the swing during the 1987 model year. The floor was flattened (along with other changes) in 1989.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/11/2009 10:58:46

sweetcraft
Admiral

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USA
816 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 11:16:15

I like the keep it simple too. The feature that gives me confidence besides the pointing of the swing keel is when going aground I can change my draft, 10 turns of the 32 of the winch. Not all the way up either until clear. Oh you have never gone aground?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 11:29:31

*Knock on artificial wood*

I haven't gone hard aground yet (saving that for this season) but I have "rearranged the furniture" down there. Yes, this is one situation where the Swing wins hands down.

I have heard that once you are aground in a waing keel, youd best get out the beer and pretzels. You're going to be there for a while and it will be quite a show getting you off.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 11:32:33

Hello Dave Bristle,

On our lake - if you are not at anchor - you're racing . . . whether it's offical or not.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 11:41:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sweetcraft
 The feature that gives me confidence besides the pointing of the swing keel is when going aground I can change my draft, 10 turns of the 32 of the winch. Not all the way up either until clear. Oh you have never gone aground?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And if the keel is all the way up when you run aground, that crunching noise you will hear is the sound of your rudder being torn from the stern since it will now be deeper than your keel.

Steve,

I just want to say the replacement "Catalina 25" logos I got from you many years ago still look brand spanking new...Thanks again!

Edited by - dlucier on 03/11/2009 12:09:20

Frank Law
Navigator

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USA
159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:23:15

Don I did experience what you described in having the bottom gudgeon ripped out and the rudder laying on top of the water after I hit a submerged object???...I was motoring along in nasty windy waves when it happened..After the shock of it ,,I had to reach back over the stern and hand steer the outboard back to my mooring almost 2 miles. Luckily the hole from the gudgeon was above waterline . This happened as I was taking the boat to a marina for winter storage. It was early November and I was by myself, in the upper Chesapeake Bay area

Frank Law
"About Time" 3519
sr,swk,

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 12:43:37

The fin is the better choice if you are not trailering.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 15:43:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I have heard that once you are aground in a waing keel, youd best get out the beer and pretzels. You're going to be there for a while and it will be quite a show getting you off. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This has not been my experience. Of course different bottoms will yield different results but my wing tends to stay on top of sand and at worst you have to push the boat back off. Over all I love the wing, it's simple and very sturdy. The rudder draws more than the keel though, I'll buy the swing-rudder eventually. And the pointing does suffer a bit. It doesn't help that my main is original

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3459 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 16:40:02

When I bought my Catalina, I ran aground once because of a non-working depth gage, and my own stupidity for not paying attention to when I cut outside of the channel markers and continued to go toward very shallow water. Luckily, this happened at low tide. I had to stay put for about 1 1/2 hrs until my wing came out of the mud. Since then, I installed a fishfinder and , know the area better and pay more attention to where I am going.

Catalina made all three styles because there were obviously those that had preferences based on the pro/con of each. I would review everyone's comments from the perspective of what was important to them and then decide where you fit into this whole equation. Anyone of the styles may be the right choice for you depending on your priorities for less maintenance on a used boat, racing, trailoring, the waters you sail in, etc.

Edited by - on

Kip C
Navigator

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USA
243 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 17:53:23

If the boat pretty much stays in the water and your already use to the draft of the swing, I'd go with fin. That would be a 1 ft more water you didn't have before. Also, the fin is much easier to bottom paint, if it's on a trailer.

Edited by - Kip C on 03/11/2009 18:00:42

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 17:58:24

BUT... The fin is subject to the dreaded "Catalina Smile" so if you do go that way, be sure to inspect thoroughly, and after buying, always shim the keel so there is no chance of sag.

The guy who delivers our boat to and from the marina knows I am picky on this and that I will make sure it is properly blocked and shimmed under the keel. You don't have to worry about that with the swinger. Not sure about the wing.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 18:20:36

"Catalina made all three styles because there were obviously those that had preferences based on the pro/con of each"
HUH? Did they actually offer the swing after they FINALLY developed a wing? Catalina was slow to get a wing but I think the one they designed is a good one.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 20:34:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 ...I think the one they designed is a good one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me too. The keel is strikingly shallow, but the wing is proportionally quite large. This puts a lot of mass at the bottom, probably equaling the righting moment of the heavier and deeper fin. Then, the further the boat heels, the more the wing adds to the keel's lift (the resistance to leeway) while the lift of the fin or swing is reduced. Considering that it's only a few inches deeper than the raised swinger (for trailering), and that it performs as well as Gary Norgan's (wing) and Jim Baumgart's (fin) sparring suggests, I wouldn't hesitate to own one. There's just that rudder issue...

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 22:37:34

I like my swing, especially with the shifting sandbars of Pesacola Bay and Santa Rosa Sound (Run aground? Me?) and shallow anchorages. But as others have said, if you don't like maintainance go with a wing and give up a few degrees but be happy. A swinger will out perform a wing, but only if the keel is attached and hasn't poked a hole in you bottom. Maintainance is manditory. If trailering doesn't matter, go with a fin

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4303 Posts

Response Posted - 03/11/2009 : 22:37:39

I wanted a fin when I was looking for my boat but ended up with a very nice wing keel. Now that I've owned it for a 1-1/2 years I wouldn't trade my wing for anything else but this is based solely on the fact that I sail in saltwater (Galveston Bay) which has shallow areas. I've learned that I can go almost anywhere and if there's a big cruiser in front of me I always know I can make it through a shallow area. I do worry about the rudder though since it's longer than the keel!

Just off the bay is Clear Lake which is 6' deep on a good day and it has many areas that a 3-4' deep. If it's really windy in the bay I will sail the lake and so far (knock on wood) have never touched bottom. I've got all the wind from the bay with very small waves so I can fly. There are normally not too many boats on this lake so it makes for a relaxing sail. If I had a swing or a fin this lake would be off limits for sure. In my case, having a wing opens up a another whole area that I can sail!

If I sailed in deeper water I would go for the fin.

Edited by - GaryB on 03/11/2009 22:38:59

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 08:42:46

Gary, for "flying" in 3-4' water

, you might want to look into the kick-up rudder with the gas strut that works as a shock absorber--just $949 from Ida or CD. (Remember what B.O.A.T. stands for...

)

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 13:08:09

I have found, after sailing my wing for 19 years, that,as Dave points out, that the more you heal, the better she will point. It really, really likes 10-12 with flat water.

The wing's best point of sail though is downwind. As a friend of mine once pointed out after our annual club championship,the boat "sounded like a freight train" as we overtook and passed him. They really fly with a spinnaker or asymetric.

I think you'd enjoy any one of the three models but if you're racing the fin is best. For all-around sailing/cruising, the wing is very practical and a good sailer.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 13:22:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I think you'd enjoy any one of the three models but if you're racing the fin is best. For all-around sailing/cruising, the wing is very practical and a good sailer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Al,

I think you just make me realize that since I race all around the office during the week - perhaps I should reserve the weekends for stress free cruising.

Steve

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/12/2009 : 16:01:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 Gary, for "flying" in 3-4' water

, you might want to look into the kick-up rudder with the gas strut that works as a shock absorber--just $949 from Ida or CD.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or breakaway pintles!

Due to a few lessons learned, I was never one to venture into shallow water just because I had a swinger. In fact, unlike my current fin keel, on my swinger, I avoided shallower areas like the plague.

Once, while in my old swinger, I was in about 7' or 8' of water when a huge powerboat sent a monster sized wake directly abeam of me which lifted my whole boat straight up, as if I were on an elevator, and quite high above the normal water level. Well, as they say, "what goes up, must come down" and once my boat ended its freefall at the bottom of this tsunami's trough, my swing keel impaled the lake bottom with a rather abrupt thud. On impact, the entire boat shook and the mast shuddered quite fiercely. I was almost afraid to go down below to check for damage for fear of seeing either the top of the swing keel poking up through the dinette table or that my boat had been split in half like a stick broken over one's knee. Fortunately, neither scenario played out.

Something similar happened when I was motoring in the marina channel with my swing keel fully raised, and my rudder made contact. The upper gudgeon then bent upwards enough to allow the lower pintle to pop out of the lower gudgeon. The rudder, now hanging on by only the upper gudgeon, was now able to float itself directly into my outboard's spinning prop, and it did so post-haste.

Immediately upon hearing my rudder being sawed in half, I cut the engine. With no rudder and no outboard, and only a few feet from the channel's steel seawall, my boat was now free to drift ever so smartly into the rusty bolts protruding every few feet along the seawall. The same nasty bolts that in a previously life once held nice wooden fenderboards...Oh, joy!

After I sold my swinger and got my fixed fin, I no longer worried as much about the shallows...Hmmmm? That's probably why I keep running aground!

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