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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Epoxy and me.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/06/2009 : 16:52:40

I have a hole in my boat.

It's 4" Diameter and matches the hole saw in my basement. I made th ehole to insert a deck vent in. I purposely made the hole 1/4" oversized so I could backfill with epoxy and have a really good weatherproof seal.

Last night I taped off the deck, put the trim ring for the vent in place, sealed everything off with green painter's tape, and poured the epoxy/hardener mix out of th eold margarine tub into the hole.

The I went into the head, closed the folding doors, plugged in a space heater and waited for the epoxy to set up.

That was when I noticed the first drip. Luckily we had a roll of toilet paper in the head, so I was able to mop up the drip right away. The epoxy however, continued to drip. I never needed more than the first wad of toilet paper to clean up with, so it wasn't a whole lot of dripping going on.

About an hour later, the dripping all stopped. "Yay," thinks I, "The epoxy's set up!" I took all the painter's tape off, and caught the trim ring as it fell in my hand. There was no epoxy left in the hole.

I am working with East System epoxy. It is supposed to take about 20 minutes to set up. The first time I tried working with it, it took hours before the stuff set. The second time, I couldn't work fast enough, and it was hardening on my tools.

I would like to avoid having this project go in the same direction as all things electrical (they wither at my touch), therefore I turn to you my esteemed contemporaries for advice.

What are the tempreature needs to get a good set? I have the pumps on the bottles (5:1) should I be adding a little extra hardener? I have a bucket of micro-bubbles, when should they be employed?

This morning when I went out (in the snow) to check on the boat, the epoxy that was soaked up by the plywood had hardened, but I had left the space heater on all night with the doors on either side of the head closed. How much epoxy would the plywood have absorbed? Last night it was pretty cold, but th eboat was toasty when I went out this morning.

The gap I am filling is about 1/8" all the way around the proposed vent. Would I be better to just put the vent in and fill the gap with 5200?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 17:18:42

My experience with West Systems epoxy is that it's pretty sensitive to cold. The colder it is, the longer it takes to gel, and by longer I mean hours and hours longer. Like you, I've had it set so fast that I couldn't get a lamination together, but that was on a warm day.

What you should do is mix the epoxy with some sort of filler (microballoons are probably fine for this particular application) until it's the consistency of peanut butter. West Systems has a pretty good website, and they actually answer questions pretty quickly, I've had pretty good luck with them. If you can get the epoxy to a consistency where it won't run, you've mostly solved the problem. I did exactly this when I mounted my Garelick outboard bracket, and it was a good thing I did, it took 9 hours for the epoxy to gel, even with my little Coleman propane heater running below the transom to heat things up a bit.

In case you're tempted, mixing it with sawdust as a thickener is a bad idea. Although probably not so bad in the cold. The mixture can get hot enough to self-combust. I've made up a piping bag full of epoxy to fix a hole in my house & had it get hot enough to burn me. That was a fun day.

Another trick I've learned if I'm working in the winter, is to set my cans on top of one of my heat registers for a couple of hours beforehand (with the caps cracked so the cans can vent) to warm up the resin & catalyst.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 17:22:47

We heat the house via a pair of woodstoves. I'll ask SWMBO about how it feels if your cans are on there. If she slaps me I won't try it. I don't think setting epoxy on the wood stove is a good idea anyway...

Seriously though, thanks for the reply. I think I am going to re-try with the microballoons. I wasn't sure if this was a good application for them or not. Should I worry about the bond between the stuff I already have in there and the new batch of epoxy?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 17:33:16

Depends on how long it's been in there. Epoxy can develop something called "[url="http://www.epoxyproducts.com/blush4u.html"]amine blush[/url]" soon after curing that'll make it hard to bond to for a while, but it's easily removed with a scrubby pad & a bit of elbow grease. It's dependent on temperature & humidity levels & exacerbated by long curing times. So given your situation, you almost certainly have some blush on your epoxy.

I don't think putting the cans on a woodstove is a good plan either (we have forced gas heat). However, in proximity for a couple of hours shouldn't hurt. I've tried warming the cans with hot water (we also have an on demand water heater), but that didn't seem to work very well. Basically I try to do any epoxy work when it's warmer (it's one of the reasons I'm dragging my feet with my tiller).

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 17:55:12

Where do you still have snow? It's 80 F here today, we are running the AC and the fan is on in my office. I'm sun burned from 6 hours of sailing Saturday and I cut my lawn and adjusted the sprinklers Sunday!

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 19:13:28

Yes, the microballoons as filler can be used to thicken up the epoxy; enough so that one can create forms and shapes out of it, if desired.

True: the colder the temperature the longer the curing time. Also, the epoxy chemical reaction results in heat; however, the heat from the curing process should not be considered as part of the temperature variable when estimating cure time - - I don't think anyone has had the notion, but I just thought it should be mentioned.

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/06/2009 : 22:18:14

I'm not a fan of epoxy for that application, nor 5200--it's too aggressive an adhesive. It's good that the epoxy is soaked into the core around the hole. Now I'd use caulk around the vent so it can be removed, replaced, or re-bedded in the future. Some caulk is necessary anyway to get a waterproof seal--you'd likely get some tiny cracks or voids with just epoxy due to expansion, contraction, and compression of the deck.

Is the fitting plastic or stainless? Are you mounting a deck plate (as from Nicro), or the vent itself? With stainless, I'd use polysulfide (Life Caulk). For plastic I use Life Seal (more compatible with plastic).

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 10:16:18

Hi Dave, its a Nicro - white plastic deck plate. I have 4200 on hand, maybe I'll use that instead?

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 11:08:08

Chris,

I've only used the West System. I also bought their informative booklet for $5 called "Fiberglass boat repair & maintenance" that is maybe 30pp. long. Making a 1/8" deck-fitting gasket is not among the range of applications described. The dozens of epoxy and fiberglass applications they discuss in detail are all related to repairing the fiberglass surfaces of the boat, with or without a core, big or little, inside or out, above or below the waterline,

The temperature idea is critical to the polymerization of the epoxy. Room temperature is best. If your boat is outside in Ontario in April, you might have to build an insulated tent over the deck where you will work and then heat the tent for a few hours until all surfaces reach room temperature. Then your epoxy/fiberglass will harden in less than half an hour.

One last thing - it's important that the epoxy seal the deck hole, so even if you don't use epoxy to hold the vent, you should make sure some unthickened epoxy mixture sits against the deck core that you have cut open. I'm emphasizing what Dave said.

The West System recommends using a piece of plastic sheeting under such a deck hole, attached firmly with tape. I'd support the plastic film across the hole with cardboard then tape. Epoxy doesn't stick to polyethylene sheeting. Fill the hole with epoxy to waterproof it, then drain from below before it hardens. I would test a batch first at that temperature to confirm the hardening time.

Want more info? Send me a PM.

Edit - The booklet is 86 pp!!!

Edited by - JohnP on 04/07/2009 11:18:50

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 11:12:44

Hardened epoxy generates a surface property called amine blush that you wash off with water before applying more epoxy or fiberglass layers. That's why most workers add layers of fiberglass before the previous layer becomes tack-free.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/07/2009 11:13:39

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 : 12:08:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Hi Dave, its a Nicro - white plastic deck plate. I have 4200 on hand, maybe I'll use that instead?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Better than 5200. Now that you're core is sealed and with just 1/8" all around, that should be all you need. Tighten it down after the caulk has set for a week.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2009 : 16:42:56

Well, this weekend is forecast to be sunny and warm, I'll give her a go with rth e 4200, and let you guys know how it works out on Monday.

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