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 Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums
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 J-80 that lost it's keel - double handed Farralons
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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/07/2009 :  12:02:43  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
If you have not read the riveting tale on Sailing Anarchy, go to their home page and read the "Going Down" front page stories. There is Part 1 through Part 5 on the home page.

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php

The final chapter - with lessons learned - is incredible and gives me lots of ideas right as I am about to start on a series of long, offshore, night, doublehanded races.


Indiscipline 1978 FK SR #398

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  14:24:46  Show Profile
Yep, I grabbed a few ideas there too, although in rough weather we put the ditch bag in the cockpit along with the EPIRB. Float for the radio and float for the flashlight rank high on my list of ideas to consider. Although they are tethered to the ditch bag which floats. Having a ditch bag with spare GPS and flares would have made a difference as would have an EPIRB. WM has a new 300 dollar model now...

Life happens fast. Glad they made it. One more example of why I don't like modern "offshore racing" vessels. Where is Ralph Nader - c'mon, forget speed, how about survivability? I won't hammer the J's too much, but even old school C25's almost carry more keel. Cynthia Woods was deemed to be a result of poor maintenance, not poor design by the Coasties. I'd say both. But I digress....

sten

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  17:37:16  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
So what worse case situations could happen to a C25 in tough offshore conditions? The chance of losing the keel on a well maintained boat on which the keel bolts are in good condition or have been replaced/sistered seems unlikely. The keel tearing off the entire bottom of the boat while rounding up on a big wave seems unlikely. Here is my list of possible worse cases

(1) break a shroud or stay - lose the mast
(2) lose the lower pintle/gudgeon - or break the rudder
(3) break the gooseneck
(4) have the motor mount break off leaving a big hole in the stern
(5) get knocked down, fill the cockpit, and take major water into the interior
(6) slip and fall overboard while changing jibs or doing foredeck work with the spinnaker.

Analysis

(1) I know of a boat that broke the forestay and lost the mast. The only thing to do here is to make sure all stays are in good condition, make sure all turnbuckles have cotter pins or rings and are taped. If you do lose the mast be prepared to cut everything away.

(2) I know of a boat that broke the lower pintle. He was able to make port but took some serious damage. I just inspected mine and am still working on adding a 3rd pintle/gudgeon.

(3) I'm always afraid of breaking the gooseneck. I center the boom before all gybes. I use preventers. This would not disable the boat but would put an end to racing.

(4) Every time I watch the motor bounce when I come off a big wave I worry. The transom seems very thick and very sturdy. I don't see any flexing. Backing plates are used. In really bad conditions I think it would be better to leave it down.

(5) I've rounded up under control but I think the freeboard on the C25 is just right - its a dry boat. I've never been knocked down but I do have closed latches on the lazerette and also I put locking barrel bolts on the lower companionway board. I have an electric bilge pump but if this worse case happened and we took a lot of water down below it could lead to the loss of the boat.

(6) This is a bad one. I have a harness and tether but almost never use it. I have a personal strobe on my lifejacket. I make sure my crew knows where all the safety gear is. It would be a good idea to run jacklines (I used to have them).

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  17:49:58  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
The fact that these guys could swim under to get to their handheld radio saved their lives. That and a waterproof flashlight. He said a handbearing compas would have been great to have in the ditch bag, along with a flare and a GPS. Something to think about.

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  18:57:21  Show Profile
Sounds to me that if one goes offshore then an EPIRB is an essential piece of gear. It can help make many troubles still have a happy ending. Not a panacea, of course, but an essential offshore item nonetheless.

On our lake we require crew to wear a PFD at all times once we leave the dock.

When we are in open water a harness and tether are required to be worn at all times. Sunny skies and calm water? I don't care, the crew is tethered. Too much can go too wrong to fast.

Communications gear is a must as well - multiple VHF and cell phones. Our PFDs have strobes and whistles.


Edited by - Nautiduck on 04/07/2009 19:06:58
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JimB517
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Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  19:49:33  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
Yes, the crew of the J80 did NOT have an EPIRB, which would have hastened their rescue. Its a miracle their handheld VHF worked and kept working while they were in the water.

They could talk on the radio to their rescuers, the J80 crew could see them, but the rescue crew could not see the J80.

Guys on SA were talking about "laser flares" anyone know what these are?

I do have whistles and strobes on my lifejackets.

At least our keels are not falling off in big seas.

I guess I could add to the list:

(7) lose the forward hatch into the V Berth. This could cause you to lose the boat, easily, in rough seas - although fully burying the bow is very rare and I've only done it about 3 times in 10,000 miles sailing the C25.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  20:02:10  Show Profile
[url="http://www.rei.com/product/722966"]REI Laser Flare[/url]




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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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3704 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  20:30:34  Show Profile
(8)Snap the tiller off the rudder (Carry an emergency tiller)

(9)Break the cable on wheel steering. (We have an emergency tiller)

(10)Have the poptop come loose/off during a knockdown.

Seems to me that good preventative maintenance, visual inspection and periodic replacement of certain components like shrouds is important. Carry spare parts and a good set of tools.

I still come back to good communications gear. If things really go bad the difference between disaster and a bad memory is whether help can be summoned on time. This is especially true for our small craft which do not carry life rafts and survival suits. If we end up in the water we need to be rescued soon.

With the prices of EPIRBs/PLBs coming down this may be the time to make the purchase.



[url="http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/391175/377+710/?icid=HM2"]$299 PLB[/url]



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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/07/2009 :  23:35:07  Show Profile
Jim: I'll second Randy about the pop-top, and suggest at least a second pair of dogs for it. (I was never impressed by the ones that were there.) On the other hand, I think the forward hatch is adequately robust, and I wouldn't want to give up an alternate exit route from below.

I wouldn't be so worried about he outboard bracket. When it moves vertically, it's actually absorbing at least a little energy. Locking it down prevents that. Want to minimize shock loads? Don't lock it up <i>or</i> down. I had a starboard plate extending well below the bracket on the outside of the transom, as well as a backer inside for the upper bolts. (There's practically no outward pull on the lower bolts except in a reverse burst.)

I <i>would</i> be worried about the rudder. The pintles, gudgeons, and rudder structure of the C-25 are strictly for inshore duty. A proper off-shore rudder has a steel skeleton welded to a heavy steel post supported by a tube above and ideally a keel- or skeg-mounted foot below. All other designs seem to break at some time or other. A third pintle won't prevent the common blade breakage at the lower pintle, and that has proven to be the weak spot. If the lower pintle breaks, the leverage against the added middle pintle will be much greater than it was against the lower one, but it'll probably get you home. Regarding the blade, I haven't yet heard of the newer fiberglass balanced rudder breaking, but the original unbalanced one, and the third-party HDPE rudders, definitely have. Happily, the C-25 has a backup solution for reasonable distances--the outboard. But the initial break could be way too exciting with canvas up in a blow.

As for foredeck work--downsizing a hank-on jib on a C-25 as conditions deteriorate way over the horizon............... I can't relate. Just buckle up--PLEASE!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/07/2009 23:39:08
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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 04/08/2009 :  11:39:19  Show Profile  Visit JimB517's Homepage
My poptop has 4 dogs - one in each corner. My balanced rudder is sound, I just had it off, repainted, and checked carefully for water or delamination. None found. Its hard to imagine losing the forward hatch. Some crews pressure me to hoist and douse spin out of the hatch but I don't do it and instead use the turtle bag on the pulpit and douse directly into the cabin. If you caught a spinnaker line on the open forward hatch it could easily tear off.

My tiller was found to be delaminated, the only thing holding it together was the varnish. I glued it all up with Gorilla Glue and revarnished but its time to get a new one. If it does break its only the final few inches you hold onto that were delaminated. I or my autopilot could steer with the stub.

I'll rig jacklines for the coming offshore races.

Thinking it might be a good idea to retorque my new, sistered, keel bolts. By the way my keel well is dry, no "Catalina Smile" no cracks, and no delamination.

Those guys were something like 8 miles from the Bay - they could see the lights of the bridge - and came very close to death even with the USCG within a 1/2 mile.

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