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New to Sailing, mainsail setup question

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 11:40:00

It's essentially some rope on small blocks between the clew and the end of the boom thats been pulled tight and then tied with about 15 half-hitches back toward the clew. Its so un-adjustable that these half hitches are covered with green algae because they have never been untied. I'm going to redo the whole system.

It sounds like you have the basis for a correct system.
All I could find is this flying Scot outhaul. But it might give you the idea.

It is a one to one systen with just one single block on the end of the boom.
The line should come off the clew to the end of the boom then turn forward and go to a cleat or some tie off.

I have double blocks

at the end of the boom and a single at the clew for more purchase.

Undo the green algea line (never a good sign) and rethread the out haul with new line and see if you can figure out the blocks to pull the foot of the sail aft with the blocs you have.
The topping lift is another line tied to where it says "figure 8 knot" and leads up to the top of the mast then back down the mast to another cleat or tie off. Two separate things, two separate functions.
Good luck.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/18/2009 : 12:08:20

There are a myriad of ways to make a topping lift adjustable--sorry I don't have pictures of mine, but it used a Harken micro fiddle-block with a jam groove, and was modeled on Jim Baumgart's, if he has a shot... No line down the mast--it was adjustable from the boom end. Once it was adjustable, I found the sweet-spot where it barely went slack with sail up and the mainsheet trimmed tight, but held the boom at a decent height when we dropped the sail. I rarely adjusted it after I found that spot, but I put a stopper-knot into it so I could hoist the boom whenever I wanted (for example, to fold back the bimini), and easily drop it back to the "sweet-spot".

My out-haul stayed fixed all season--I didn't race, but with a bolt-rope foot, it doesn't make that much difference. (With a loose-footed main like Frank's above, held only at the tack and clew, an adjustable out-haul can have great effect, and it should be multi-part to be able to get enough tension.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/18/2009 12:19:34

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 08:25:03

Ok. I finally got good pictures of the mess my outhaul is. Now that I'm really looking at it, I realize that it's just not right. Here's some pics (hopefully)

Oh well. I cant figure out posting pics. If anyone can help me with that, let me know. I can email my pics to you. I'm just not very good with photo hosting. Thanks.

Edited by - monkeybird02 on 04/19/2009 08:51:36

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 09:00:14

Did you look at the Testing forum? There's a posting there on how to include a picture--basically by uploading it to a photo site like Shutterfly or Google's Picasa, and then copying and pasting the URL (address) using the

button in the message header.

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 21:35:33

Alright, I think I've got it.

Edited by - monkeybird02 on 04/19/2009 21:37:00

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/19/2009 : 21:37:42

Well, thats not very big.

Edited by - on

Turk
Admiral

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USA
736 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 04:29:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 Alright, I think I've got it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

and it's clearly not right either!

By the way, make sure the picture you are using from the camera is big and clear. Some cameras also take thumbnails that accompany the image. If that's not it, email me the image or someone else here and we'll help post it. You may as well learn how to posts picts, if this is screwed up that bad, there is no telling what the previous owner has in store for you.

We're here to help!

Edited by - Turk on 04/20/2009 04:31:08

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 04:42:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 Well, thats not very big.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You need the unique URL of the JPG not the unique URL of the thumbnail.
One other thing, any lines that have discoloration should be replaced, rope is cheap.

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 06:30:58

Ok, so I unhooked the shackle behind that rear block and took that rope out of it. That bought me another 8" down on the boom. Big improvement.

But the topping lift was still tight, so i just took out my knife and cut the rope where it runs thru the topping lift. The boom dropped down another 8-12". Holy crap. The sail is so much flatter now. I can move in very light wind now. The boat will do things it didn't do before.

I didn't take any after pics because I was hurrying in in pain from a kidney stone churning up. But now I know how to post pics, so I'l post some more.

I think that the previous owner and his wife (who are an older couple) enjoyed motoring around more than sailing. This kept the boom high up over their heads. The boat would still sail, just not very efficiently. Cutting this ridiculous assembly out of the loop bought me another 16" in total boom drop. Now the boom is just above head level when sitting. It's actually something you have to watch out for now. Before, it was no concern because it was so high.

Thanks for all the help with this, guys. I'm sure there are other issues I'll be running into, but this forum makesit alot easier to figure things out. I'll post some after pics next time I go up to the boat. I think I'm going to rig something so that I can still use the topping lift in a similar fashion for when I have too many people on the boat and want to just flop around. I've got to do something with the topping lift, right?

Edited by - monkeybird02 on 04/20/2009 06:48:25

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 06:57:02

One more thing: since my main is not loose footed, I dont really need to rig up anything too elaborate to effect an outhaul, do I? As long as its tight, I'm not going to need to adjust the outhaul on that sail too much, if ever, right? I guess you cant tell by the pics, but the main foots into a groove, kind of like the front sail feeds into the roller furler with luff tape. So I can probably just add a small block to the clew, replace the rope, and lock it down tight?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 13:21:07

Put a block on the eye at the end of your wire topping life. Tie a line to one of the top holes in the boom end cap. Run the line up through the new block and back down to a cleat. You can get more elaborate from there but the effect will be the same.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 19:34:24

I like this thread! This describes exactly what I've always thought (and sometimes argued without good evidence) about using the topping lift to make the sail "fuller" in light air. It might make it bend, but it's bending on the wrong axis, making the lower section of the sail almost non-functional, and twisting off the top--not what you want in light air. The way to do it is Frank's loose-footed main (pictured) so that the sail bends around a vertical axis.

Sorry, Monkey... This doesn't relate to your issue--but your experience intrigues me!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 19:44:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 One more thing: since my main is not loose footed, I dont really need to rig up anything too elaborate to effect an outhaul, do I? As long as its tight, I'm not going to need to adjust the outhaul on that sail too much, if ever, right? I guess you cant tell by the pics, but the main foots into a groove, kind of like the front sail feeds into the roller furler with luff tape. So I can probably just add a small block to the clew, replace the rope, and lock it down tight?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Right! A bolt-rope foot doesn't allow for much shape adjustment--a little, but not much. My out-haul had a loop tied in the line that I used used like a block to affect 2-to-1 purchase, and the whole thing was tied down tightly for the season.

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/20/2009 : 21:18:58

"My out-haul had a loop tied in the line that I used used like a block to affect 2-to-1 purchase, and the whole thing was tied down tightly for the season."

I have a bolt rope main with a nice shelf.
The outhaul gets adjusted often in about 5 knot increments. It is run back to the cockpit for easy adjustments.
[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/tech/tech25/tt008.asp"]See "lines led Aft"[/url]
I try to have all 4 tell tells streaming as much as possible. It is fun to try to get the most out of the sails in all conditions.
I also do not recommend full batton mains I feel they keep you from shaping the sail in all wind conditions. Its easier but not the best sail handling.

Underlined words are HOT links.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 06:42:58

Monkey... A standard bolt-rope foot with no "shelf" (designed-in bagginess at the foot) gives you relatively little shape control--you might as well haul it out and leave it. A shelf-foot is better for shaping, but in higher winds you'll want to use a "flattening reef" to take it out, or it works against you. We don't know which kind of sail you have, but I doubt your particular P.O. went out and bought a racing sail. Full battens are debated here often--I've only used them on Hobies and some dinghies, but to me they make the most sense with a loose foot, which allows better shape control than a shelf-foot does. In Frank's Kansas winds, full battens should help a lot, creating a smoother, more aerodynamic shape. Some day when you're ready to replace the main, you can re-start this debate. For now, let's get you rigged so you can go sailing.

BTW, I still don't have a clue about those rings... Does anywone?

Edited by - on

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 17:56:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 

BTW, I still don't have a clue about those rings... Does anywone?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I talked loosely to the P/O. He stated that the rings were tied loosely to grommets in the luff of the main. It's a fully battened main, and he said tying to the rings allowed the sail to more easily "stack" on the boom when lowering.

I dont know, maybe I'll try it once i get the topping lift adjuster worked out.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is some merit to keeping the topping lift, but having it infinitely (sort of) adjustable, right? I'm not wasting my time on rigging a system for this, am I?

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 18:15:55

“I talked loosely to the P/O. He stated that the rings were tied loosely to grommets in the luff of the main. It's a fully battened main, and he said tying to the rings allowed the sail to more easily "stack" on the boom when lowering.”

Aha, a down haul system that keeps the line close to the mast, not a bad idea if you are going to have a down haul.
I clean the mast groove with “Fasttrack” each year and my main comes down easily but I will keep that idea in mind.

As far as the topping lift goes, you need it when the main is down and you have unclipped the pig tail on the back stay that holds the boom up. You need it when you are reefing on the run, otherwise it is rarely used once the main is up, it just needs to be loose but not flopping against the leech of the main. Each of these situations require some adjustment to the topping lift.
Do you have pictures of your decks?
I wonder if you have any way to run lines back to the cockpit.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 18:36:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by monkeybird02
 Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is some merit to keeping the topping lift, but having it infinitely (sort of) adjustable, right? I'm not wasting my time on rigging a system for this, am I?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You're not wrong. The value to me of making it adjustable was being able to find just the right length to hold the boom with the sail down or when reefing and go barely slack with it up (for both cockpit headroom and proper sail shape. Then I occasionally used it to temporarily hoist the boom a foot or so for one thing or another. Carry on...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/21/2009 19:16:34

monkeybird02
1st Mate

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USA
30 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 18:54:18

I will take pics of the whole boat, but with concentration on the deck, and the sheet routing. I'm really excited about getting this tub running right.

Pretty soon, I'll have some real interesting questions relating to the head, and the holding tank (peeeeeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuuuueeeeewwwwwwwww). But I'll save those for a rainy day. For now, you guys are the best. Thanks a million. And no one ever answered my inquiry about "Mainsheet". Is it good? Make the member fee worth it? I know the answer, lol. I should be supporting a site that provides me with much guidance. I'll sign up before long, but somebody tell me the magazine is the coolest thing ever

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 19:19:24

(I could send you mine, but I'd rather you join up and just consider the $22 to be for the site.)

Edited by - on

Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 04/21/2009 : 19:48:20

The Mainsheet is a quarterly, glossy magazine that serves the entire Catalina family of Yachts.
The C25/C-250/Capri pages are limited to 3-4 pages, we also have a section of Tech Tips in a pull out section.
Each issue features wonderful stories and trips by Catalina owners. The editors, currently David Bennett, have been very successful in getting the stories and photos of our owners in the feature sections. It is also the only means of communication that reaches every C25/C250/Capri owner so you will know about elections and important goings on in the Assoc.
Having said that please do not look at your membership dues solely in terms of the Mainsheet. It is just one part of the Associations benefits. We offer discounts at Boat US, Out Boards on Line (I just saved $75 on a new motor) and other goodies.
And you’re right, helping this forum continue is important and the web site (this is just the forum please explore the web site) is a great resourse and will be enhanced in the near future.
Join today and get a burgee to fly proudly.
BTW- What you have is not a “tub”. It may seem like a lot of work now but when you are heeled over going 5-6 knots, sails perfectly trimmed, you’ll know you made the right choice.

Edited by - Peregrine on 04/21/2009 20:04:45

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 06:25:09

The pigtail is only used while not sailing (i.e. at the dock or at anchor with the sail lowered) to keep the boom elevated and out of the cockpit and to keep it from swinging too far side-to-side. It should be released before raising the main. While the topping lift will also keep the boom out of the cockpit, it's other, and perhaps primary, purpose is to adjust sail shape while sailing off the wind.
My setup uses wire with block method, and my 1/4" line starts at a pad eye on one side of the boom end, runs up to the block at the end of the wire and back down to a block on the boom. From there it runs forward along the boom to a cleat near the front of the boom. My favorite cleat for securing the topping lift is a lance cleat (looks like half a cam cleat). It is quick and very easy to use.

Edit: I wrote the above before I saw your pics, and now see that you have a wire topping lift, so I deleted some of the stuff I wrote.

Edited by - dmpilc on 04/22/2009 06:45:06

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 07:11:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 The pigtail...should be released before raising the main.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...or never hooked to the boom in the first place. (The first time you forget, you'll see why.

) <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...it's other, and perhaps primary, purpose is to adjust sail shape while sailing off the wind.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">[opinion]...to go slower. Lifting the boom reduces the effective sail area presented to the wind and twists off the top of the sail--two things that will reduce your power off the wind. The best downwind shape is with an eased outhaul for fullness, and a hardened vang to keep the boom down.[/opinion]

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 04/22/2009 07:13:32

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 10:48:47

You'll probably not make a better purchase for $22 than a membership to this organization. In fact, the info found here is worth a whole lot more.

As for the magazine, it's very professionally done and offers a lot of information on other Catalina's and Catalina Clubs. It is what it is and.........virtually free.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2009 : 12:46:58

I'll second Dave's recommendation about abandoning the use of the dreaded pigtail. That thing taught me more lessons than I care to remember.

Just tape it to the backstay and pretend it isn't there.

A proper topping lift is more versatile, is easier to use, and is infiniely more safer.

Edited by - on

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