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what to look for in buying 25

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calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/04/2009 : 07:38:48

Hey all:

I'm looking to potentially buy a Catalina 25 and have some questions. At my rather isolated marina there are two going up for sale, one is a 1980 in excellent well-cared for condition with lots of upgrades (new standing rigging, new sails, new headstay furler) and a 1986 in "needs TLC" condition. Both are fixed keel.

1) Are there any known issues or problems with either of these year models? (80, 86)

2) What kind of price ranges are reasonable for these years for excellent condition and "needs some work"?

3) Any other things to look for or questions to ask?

I have sailed for 6 years, starting with a Sunfish, then bought an O'Day Daysailer, and currently have a San Juan 21. I love sailing and am good at it - no beginner issues here - but REALLY would like to be able to sleep on the boat! Now that I've been on and off several 25-28' boats I really like the feel of the Catalina 25. Nice size cockpit and it doesn't feel too big.

Thanks much in advance,
Carlos

S/V Mazama
1983 FK SR
#3682

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 07:53:38

Carlos,
Welcome to the forum, you'll find lots of good information here once you've bought your C-25 (and before).

I own a C-250, so I'll let the C-25 guys chime in regarding the various years and such and what specifically to look for.

What I do recommend is you pick up a copy of Don Casey's "Inspecting the aging sailboat". I learned enough from that book to be able to walk away from a boat after half an hour's poking around or less, or to stay around for a couple of hours poking & prodding on what seems to be a keeper. We looked at about three dozen boats before settling on the C-250, and then we looked at three or four of those before purchasing ours from someone on this forum. For all you know the one that needs some TLC might be a gem in the rough that you can pick up for a song, and then do your own upgrades. The book will help you determine that.

Your sailing career sounds very much like mine, I started off in Sunfish, then catamarans for a while, and our last boat was a San Juan 21. We had that one for about seven years before moving up to the C-250 about three years ago. It's very nice to have a boat you can (almost) stand up in, with a head, galley, and reasonably comfortable sleeping areas.

Let us know how it goes with your search.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 08:37:36

Hi Carlos,
Again, welcome to the forum. whereas both are great boats Usually no matter what you're buying, if they've produced them for 5 years the latter years will be superior because the bugs have been worked out so the 86 is a better boat BUT then individual owners can beat the snot out of, or take very good care of a boat so I'd take a very thorough look at each, take many pictures so you can compare them later and then make sure you have the chosen one hauled and professionally surveyed before you buy. Good luck!

Edited by - DaveR on 06/04/2009 08:39:06

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 09:33:28

The key differences between those years (that I can think of off-hand) are:

- The '80 has a cast iron keel, that is essentially bare and will always show some rust, but that's essentially cosmetic and only visible on the hard. It is mounted with mild steel bolts and nuts that rust. The '86 has an encapsulated lead keel with stainless bolts and nuts.

- The '80 has a gas tank shelf in the port sail locker ("dumpster"), and therefore two vents on the deck by the transom. The '86 has a fuel locker molded into the port cockpit seat--a much better solution.

- The '80 might have cast aluminum spreader sockets on the mast, while the '86 has welded stainless. That's an easy upgrade from Catalina Direct.

- The '86 has a stem fitting that includes a tang that goes about 8" down the outside of the bow (under the rub-rail), to prevent the fitting from being pulled up. The '80 might not have that, although it's another upgrade you can do. (You can see it on mine by clicking the picture below.)

That's about all I can think of--otherwise they're the same boat, subject to how they've been treated and maintained. How about the outboards? What are the interiors--"dinette" (booth to port) or "traditional" (table mounted to the bulkhead)?

The next couple of major upgrades were 1987 (wing keel replacing swing) and 1989 (new deck and interior molds).

Fine boats! Good luck in your quest! And welcome to a great community!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/05/2009 07:19:03

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 09:36:09

A survey of each craft, by the same inspector is your best action...a well maintained '80 can easily be a better craft than an abused '86...conversely - if the '86 only needs the typical upgrades as received by the '80 (how recent are the upgrades?) - then that may be better...it's largely a matter of how much time you want to put into it...

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 10:11:11

Before you pay for a surveyor there are some checks you can make yourself. All of the above plus:

Are the surfaces the original gel-coat or painted?
Does it have a pop-top and boot?
Will the outboard need replacing soon?
Does the current owner participate in this forum? When you speak to him is he knowledgeable about this specific model?
Does the slip come with the boat?
What shape are the cushions in? Replacements are expensive.
Do the batteries still have life? One or two?
What kind of head is there?
Is the standing and running rigging look like the original or need replacing?
Do the stanchions feel loose or firm?
Are the pintles/gudgeons on their last legs?

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 11:29:06

Carlos,

You are going to get a lot of useful info here but it will be in a number of posts that you'll have to pull together into a single checklist. You may be beter off getting a reference like Don Casey's book to help you consolidate points of inspection.

For me the important point are: the bottom - it must not have any blisters,leaks, or other hull or rudder damage (some cosmetic is ok); the runnng rigging, standing rigging, and sails should be in good shape; if you're cruising the interior is important - cusions, stove, head, water system should be in good shape; the electical system should also be in working condition -interior lights, instruments, running lights and anchor light (the condtion of the battery(s) and wiring is important here); finally, when there isn't any wind you need an auxiliary engine - what condition is the outboard in, if any; finally, a cruiser usually needs to anchor at sometime so check the ground tackle for servicability.

Compare the two boats in these areas and pick the best one. Anything else on the boat is gravey. Once you have a feeling for all this, post the deficiencies here and we can let you know our opinion. A good survey of both boats would be best but expensive. Take your time. A boat can be a small initial investment but potentially a big headache and money sponge.

Edited by - aeckhart on 06/04/2009 11:29:39

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 11:35:51

...a hole in the water...surrounded by fiberglass...into which you throw money...

Edited by - on

islander
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4024 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 12:38:44

I would look at all the items that Dave pointed out on the 80. I would also take a good look at the windows. The aluminum frames on the 80 probably leak. I think the 86 as the smoked Lexan windows, a better set up. Are you able to do your own work or do you need to have a marina do work for you. The upgrades on the 80 can get costly if you need to pay someone. When I was looking for my Cat 25,I ghosted this site for info and decided I wanted an 86 or better. I can do all of my own work but I would rather sail and by 86 most of the upgrades were done by Catalina. These are good fun boats. Easy to sail. You won't be sorry. I'm not.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 12:39:51

Welcome.

The previous owner of my boat added new sails and outboard shortly before selling. I was delighted. You might be able not only to have each boat inspected to compare, but you might be able to sail on each boat. That would be very helpful, since you know a lot about the way the standing and running rigging should all work.

I recommend getting Don Casey's bigger book with all the chapters on surveying an old boat and especially all the areas of boat maintenance.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 14:43:18

Also, look at the condition of the antifouling paint. If it's covered with a thick accumulation of split and peeling old paint, it will sail badly, and you won't be happy with it. Stripping it all off is a job that you can do yourself and save money, but it's a difficult, very unpleasant job, and you should definitely take it into consideration in the purchase price that you're willing to pay.

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 15:34:02

If I were to buy another C25, I would also take into account the "extras". When I bought my boat, it was out of the box stock with very little add-ons. The first year I owned it, I added:

Roller Furling and 135% Genoa
Bimini Top
Stereo w/cd MP3
Anchor roller
Simrad Auto-Pilot
Solar Cabin Vent
Larger Gas Tank
Whisker Pole

I think I spent more on these upgrades then I did on the original purchase price. Also, last year I replaced the original 1987 Mercury Sailmaster with a four stroke Tohatsu. The only advantage to adding these things myself was that they were all brand new.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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957 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2009 : 16:35:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 If I were to buy another C25, I would also take into account the "extras". When I bought my boat, it was out of the box stock with very little add-ons. The first year I owned it, I added:

Roller Furling and 135% Genoa
Bimini Top
Stereo w/cd MP3
Anchor roller
Simrad Auto-Pilot
Solar Cabin Vent
Larger Gas Tank
Whisker Pole

I think I spent more on these upgrades then I did on the original purchase price. Also, last year I replaced the original 1987 Mercury Sailmaster with a four stroke Tohatsu. The only advantage to adding these things myself was that they were all brand new.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's very true. I considered the same thing, but also considered not having things done also. You don't want a boat with a ton of holes in it from "customization". Personally, I like to start from scratch.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2009 : 06:40:59

Other thoughts...

Are you racing or cruising?
Will you use the pop-top or not?
Do you care about the extras? (I'd rather Not have a roller furler right now)
How much maintenance time do you have?
How much sailing time do you have?

We bought Iris as a comfortable mix of racer and cruiser options. She came with a full suite of sails and electronics, but was ill equipped to be away from port for more than a weekend. Being that the goal for us was the north channel, we had a load of outfitting to do on her.

In the end the demands on my time and wallet to outfit her with a working 12volt system, and get her equipped with stowage and cruising gear left my wife convinced that boat ownership is big strain on the family. In retrospect I may have been smarter to shell out more $$ up front, and hopefully not have had to spend as much time and money on refitting, retrofitting, and fixing.

One more thing... Don't trust the surveyor to do a thorough job. Be there when he does th esurvey. Our survey completely missed the 12V issues, and never looked at the outboard. Since then we have put close to $800 into the OB and I don't know how much into new batteries, wiring, fuses, switches, monitors, etc.

Added strain to the 12V system was that there were a number of false-starts and redo's. If you have good knowledge of electronics, FG repairs, and small engines, you may be able to pick up a bargain and have better success bringing it up to your standards. I had NO previous experience in any of these areas.

Finally, the Fixed/Fin keel is usually regarded as the racer's boat between all the C-25 models. Think of it as the Dodge Neon R/T (I laugh everytime I see one of those, who are they kidding) as opposed to the regular Neon. It is limited in its cruising ability by its draft (3'-10") and is not easily trailerable. If you will want ot leave your lake and see other horizons, you may do well to consider a wing or swing keel which is easier to trailer and launch. These each come with their own benefits/challenges. OTOH if the PO of your boat will be at the marina, there is a big benefit there in that you can ask him why there are 7 layers of adhesives on the grabrails when you pull them off the boat, where the stray wire that you found wedged between the water tank and bulkhead goes, or why there is a smiley face painted on the underside of the dumpster...

Edited by - Prospector on 06/05/2009 06:50:11

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2009 : 21:35:20

Read the "Shopping for a C-25" and "Self Appraising a C-25" in Tech Tips for starters, I found them very helpful before I jumped.

Edited by - on

skipperof ballanato
Deckhand

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13 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2009 : 11:51:44

Carlos,

Welcome to the site. I own an '86 tall rig/fin keel. I enjoy racing it in out club series, in which it competes well in the cruiser fleet, and for recreational sailing. Cat 25s are forgiving boats to sail and are readily single handed if lines are run back to the cockpit. The sails aren't so heavy, nor lines so hard to pull as larger boats. Unless windy, it usually doesn't require less than 2 eyebrows worth of braun to handle.
'86 is a blister prone era as I found out this spring when I pulled the boat for a a look at the hull. Avoiding blisters means a well done bottom job and periodic inspections. Although the PO had had the bottom done professionally a year before I bought her, I found that the management of previous blisters had been incorrectly done, and not enough barrier coat had been applied. I learned a lot about how to fix blisters....
A tall rig/fin keel is great to have for racing if you sail on a light air lake. People on this site living in windier climes seem very happy with the standard rig. The reefed tall rig main is the same size as the standard main. The tall rig's boom is lower than the standard rig's - just a word of caution if you don't respect it.
Find out about the marine head. I moved the boat to a lake with no pump out facilities. I'm installing a porta potty this year, but it's taken a year or two to recover from the trauma of having to pump the old tank out by hand and to take out the old head.
I would think that you could get a great boat for $6-9000. There may be some good buys out there given the economy.
A professional marine survey is a must before finalizing your purchase.

Good luck,

Jim Crane
Ballenato,
'86 TR/FK

Edited by - on

calden
Navigator

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USA
194 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 15:50:50

Hey all:

Thanks for the great and extensive advice. I've only been able to see one of the boats, the 1986, and it looks pretty good just in need of lots of cleaning and some upgrading. I am very lucky to have a knowledgeable forum member at my marina, who gave me great advice as well as actually having sailed on this boat. What a great community. I need to have a few things checked out and am trying to find a local person to survey, but that's not easy in North Idaho.

I have a couple of questions about some very minor leaks, and want your opinions. One each from two midship stanchions and what looks like an ex-leak in the starboard chainplate.

Here is a picture of the cabin - looks very good to me.

Here are two pics of the port and starboard stanchion leaks. These are only at one set of stanchions, midship, right across from each other - no others. They look really minor to me and as if the stanchions could be taken off and rebedded:

Here are two pics of the starboard chainplate leak, which looks to have happened a long time ago (not at all wet after a recent rain):

The deck areas around these do NOT feels spongy in the least, and I'm 240 lbs. and know how to test for such things :) There is no other water damage anywhere in the boat. Any warning bells ring for anyone?

All other issues are things I can understand - original but clean looking (no meathooks) standing rigging, some wear and age on the running rigging, some rust on the lifelines, which actually look pretty tired. I've priced out replacements for these items and will plug those factors in. Sails look very clean and good - the genoa and spinnaker look brand new, in fact. I'm having the bottom looked at, but it's got a fairly recent (maybe 4 y.o.) repaint and word is that there are no blisters or pox.

Thanks again,
Carlos

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 17:23:07

It doesn't look bad, but the best insurance would be to pull the stanchion and chain plate bolts and poke around to be sure the core is dry and hard. Pearl had several leaks like that (she still has one), but the core was fine.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 06:42:50

How does the table get stowed with that lamp there?

Those leaks won't be the end of the world, but point them out to your surveyor, and ask him to check ALL the through-hull hardware. If those 2 stanctions weren't rebed properly, what guarantee do you have on the rest of the deck hardware?

Ask the current owner how often he rebed his hardware, and what he used. Ours showed a mix of 4200, silicone, and the original Moose-snot Catalina used. According to the PO everything on her was bed in 4200...

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 10:44:29

That's a great looking boat. Buy it, rebed the chainplates (an easy task given this website's information) and move the lamp so you can fold the table up. Then enjoy!

Edited by - on

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