Association Forum - Maiden Voyage...I'll never forget this one

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Maiden Voyage...I'll never forget this one

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

hinmo
Navigator

Member Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/08/2009 : 02:09:26

After a winter of planning and a spring of prepping, we sailed Kukla (83 SR, fixed keel) from Plymouth Ma. to Mattapoisett Ma. yesterday. I'm still wrestling with my emotions. I'll keep it short as possible.

20 miles to the Cape Cod canal in light winds....nice. 10 miles thru the canal with fair tides.....great. Hit Buzzards Bay with 17 kts of prevailing SW in the face, 4-5 ft confused, whitecapped chop.....the boat was beyond expectations...my very experienced crew was raving how this boat handled....tight, dry, neutral helm......I was in my glory.

THEN, as we rounded the point into my home port, 3-4 hrs ahead of schedule....SNAP/BANG....the head stay let go. All hands on deck, full-out disaster. We lost the forstay, the furler, the head sail, and almost the boat. I got the anchor set 150ft shy of the rocks. How the mast stayed up, I'll never know. After we sorted it all out and got the boat to the dock on the aux, we had to take the old reefer extrusion and cut it off (ruined). The forstay was spared. This was a three hr effort in itself. Believe me, this is the condensed version!

Actual failure: Apparently, the retaining pin on the clevis holding the forstay to the plate had let go.

WAY-AHEAD PLAN:I now need a new headsail (my buddy has a spare from his J-boat that might fit) and a new furler system, and some more confidence. Sounds like the CDI FF4 model is the simplest to install. Has anyone installed one? Does it really fit over the existing stay? I would appreciate any hands-on advice.

What a mixed emotion day. Wow

"Kukla" '83 FK,SR

Edited by - hinmo on 06/08/2009 03:54:33

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 06:05:31

John, congratulations on many counts. What a testimony to the lower shrouds, which must have kept the mast up! I agree that the C25 is a remarkably tough little boat. Been there in similar conditions in the Chesapeake, and I've learned to trust this boat.

I have the CDI FF4, and yes, it fits over the existing forestay, has an internal halyard which leaves you your own jib halyard to use for a spinnaker (or reserve forestay!), and works great. Order it with the ball bearings.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 06:35:33

Wow!! Whew!! Sounds like some excellent seamanship--good work!

I would examine that forestay very carefully for any damaged from the furler extrusion. I recall that Catalina Direct's CDI kit includes a new forestay, although you can probably negotiate it without. How old is your standing rigging in general?

Others have reported good deals on CDI--you can Search for the many threads with that info. I've heard nothing but concurrence over the past 15 years on the value of the roller bearing option.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 08:35:33

Yikes!

The same thing happened to a buddy of mine. For peace of mind, my spin halyard is tied off on the bow pulpit.

Remember, that was does not kill you, only makes you stronger.

Edited by - on

Windhover
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 09:03:50

John, glad to hear no crew injuries!
Definately go with roller bearing option if you go with the CDI... I have the CDI installed by PO with no bearing and it can bind when furling, even headed directly up in moderate or heavier winds. There is a retro kit available that I will add after this season.
www.sailcdi.com

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 10:16:31

Wow, glad you guy made it in without any injuries, and it's now just a good story to tell. It's incredible that you didn't lose your rig.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 11:59:35

You say retaining pin, was it a cotter or a ring? The retaining pin is under zero load so they do not fail, they can be installed poorly and shake out or as in the case of the rings, work their way out. Rings should never be used on standing rigging, cotters only and they should be taped with rigging tape after installation.

Edited by - on

Rich G
Navigator

Members Avatar

226 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 12:14:01

Wow! Glad this story has a relatively happy ending!

Incidentally, I bought Cerberus in Mattapoisett and sailed to NYC for my maiden voyage. It was no where near as exciting as yours. It's a great yard, and David Kincaid is extremely helpful.

Edited by - Rich G on 06/08/2009 12:14:35

hinmo
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 12:32:37

Folks - my friends and I are reviewing the incident today. We do not know if it was the retaining pin. The clevis was gone, and no other damage found.

That said, could it be the clevis itself broke? This seems the more likely scenerio in retrospect. If so, would it be outright wear and tear? Or is it possible the strong conditions couple with improper tuning (fore/aft stays for example) put undo strain on her? We suspect the previous owner would have never sailed her in conditions like we did (Cape Cod Bay).

I intend to sail her hard, so I am wondering...

ps - CDI FF4 and new 150 on order

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:00:52

Was the clevis on the toggle properly sized?

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 13:17:14

No, the clevis could not break, your swage would fail first. No clevis means whoever was responsible for putting the cotter in either flat out didn't or did it so poorly it fell out. The beating to windward in the chop would cause the forestay to flex often enough to work the clevis out. Everything on a boat needs to be "right" there are few areas where opinion enters it. Like Don said, some people actually use small clevis because they don't have the right size, that is unacceptable, everything must be correct or the passengers are at peril. This is a photo of what was in my drawer, note all the different clevis and cotters and rings. Many are too big for a Catalina 25 but were greatly appreciated by the people I would give them to who had bigger boats. Never buy singles of things like clevis and cotters, buy packages.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 14:32:21

I'm guessing the clevis was too short or the toggle was spread out putting the toggle tight against the cotter pin. Over time this will cut the cotter pin. I found this condition on IMPULSE when I was looking things over on a windless day. The cotter pin was half worn through. I have since changed them all and will now install new cotters every season.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 19:21:33

I've used cotter rings for years, and they've never worked their way out or posed any other problem.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 20:49:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've used cotter rings for years, and they've never worked their way out or posed any other problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had a cotter ring "disappear" last year on one of my forward shrouds. Don't know if it sheared or worked itself out. Found the clevis laying on the deck. Definitely something that should be inspected periodically and properly maintained.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 21:23:11

As to your original question about the CDI furler, I just got done installing one on my C25. You should definately go with the FF4 and not the FF2. There is a great discussion about needing the ball bearing model verses the regular model. I can't speak to that yet because I haven't taken it out yet. But I have tested it in dry dock pulling in the jib in some fair wind. It worked very well. I have the regular model. I got mine from Sailrite which had a sale on a month ago.
The instructions provided by CDI are pretty clear. The only part in the instructions which made no sense to me was about "Adding washers to the T-bolt so the toggle will reach the chain plate hole". They provide several washers for this. I ended up using one. Measure twice, cut once. Sometimes its a little bit hard to understand what they are talking about until you have the thing actually in your hands, then it becomes pretty clear. Sailrite also sells a DVD for this install. If you want it let me know.

Actually, the biggest hassle I had which isn't covered in the instructions much, was running the furling line back to the cockpit. What they do say in the instructions is that the first fairlead needs to be placed so that the furling line comes off the drum in a perpendicular manner. But given the small area of deck up forward, the anchor hatch, the safety lines, and the attachments for the bow pulpit, its difficult to find a place to put this first fairlead. I eventually put it between the anchor hatch and the edge combing.
By the way, the cheapest furling lead to put on the stantions I found was from Defender Industries made by spinlock. I got two bullseye leads (model WL/1)and one block lead (model WL/2). These were $11.95 and $23.91 respectively. These are very nice and very well made. I ended up leading the line down the starboard side to a 4" cleat just below the Catalina insignia on the outside of the cockpit. This setup works very well.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 06/08/2009 : 21:59:31

Thanks Steve - good stuff.
I was at the boat tonight (opps - last nite now), it appears the fore stay is kinked at the joint of the crimp at the top (as a result of the wild whipping while the sail was flailing wildly). Is this a death sentence for the stay? There appears to be no frays in it. If yes, do I cancel the sail/furler I ordered yesterday (if Nation Sail will let me) and buy a complete upgrade kit from Cat direct?

Also, how does anyone have their mooring bridal....do you try for even tension on the main cleat and the one on the gunnel? Or is the one on the gunnel a backup/secondary one and looser than the one in the center?

Thanks

Edited by - hinmo on 06/08/2009 22:00:07

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 00:11:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've used cotter rings for years, and they've never worked their way out or posed any other problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had a cotter ring "disappear" last year on one of my forward shrouds. Don't know if it sheared or worked itself out. Found the clevis laying on the deck. Definitely something that should be inspected periodically and properly maintained.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
As, evidently, should ALL rigging.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

3476 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 03:46:51

I had a retaining ring on a clevis pin "disappear", but only once in 15 years. I was shocked. My brother was under way at the time.

I like to think I make a "Walk Around" like they do on airplanes before they go up. Visually inspect the standing rigging.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 11:12:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hinmo
 Thanks Steve - good stuff.
I was at the boat tonight (opps - last nite now), it appears the fore stay is kinked at the joint of the crimp at the top (as a result of the wild whipping while the sail was flailing wildly). Is this a death sentence for the stay? There appears to be no frays in it. If yes, do I cancel the sail/furler I ordered yesterday (if Nation Sail will let me) and buy a complete upgrade kit from Cat direct?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, I would get a new forestay (you don't want to repeat your last experience

). But if you ordered a new CDI furler I would say no, don't cancel your order for the sail/furler because the furler fits on top of the forestay so replacing the forestay can be independent of replacing the furler.

Edited by - on

hinmo
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
248 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2009 : 16:35:42

gotcha Steve - gonna order one tomorrow. I send you an email, I would like to get the CDI video.

Does anyone have a mooring pennant arrangement for the bow cleat layout? Is the one on the gunwale a backup (in case the primary/center fails?), or do you try to make both the center cleat(thru the chock and the gunwale cleat equal lengths?....I'm confused by the cleat arrangement.

Thanks

Edited by - hinmo on 06/10/2009 03:16:39

MiNO
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2009 : 21:55:04

Wow, that's a crazy story.

We just installed a CDI FF4 with bearings last weekend. We also put on a new forestay that we purchased from CD direct. We got the kit without ordering the CDI furler from them. Bought the furler and a new headsail from North Sails and also bought the sailrite video. We put it on with the mast up, using the jib halyard to secure the main while the forestay was off.

I didn't know that cotter rings weren't as good as cotter pins. Is it that cotter pins are more robust, or that cotter rings somehow work them selves out? We used a few rings when putting up the forestay. I guess we should replace them with pins?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 08:17:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MiNO
 I didn't know that cotter rings weren't as good as cotter pins. Is it that cotter pins are more robust, or that cotter rings somehow work them selves out? We used a few rings when putting up the forestay. I guess we should replace them with pins?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IMVHO, where a thin retainer must be used, cotter rings are less likely to pull out and are made of harder steel, thus less likely to be worn through. Clevis pin applications tend to cause wear on the retainer. Since cotter pins are made of softer, more bendable metal, they can also wear more easily. I have never had a cotter ring "work out" of its hole, but I've had a couple of small cotter pins disappear.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 06/11/2009 08:19:32

Blue Nose
1st Mate

Members Avatar

67 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 11:16:01

Mino,
How did you put a new forestay on without lowering the mast? Were you able to put the RF on as well with out lowering the mast? Did you go up the mast in a Bosun seat? Just curious....

Edited by - on

MiNO
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 06/11/2009 : 13:24:33

I used a rigging ladder at the local yacht club to get up the mast. I attached the jib haylard to the deck to make sure mast it didn't fall. I'm not sure I've got the right tension on the forestay at this point, this is the first standing rigging replacement I've ever done.

We didn't have to go up the mast to install the furler, we did that at our slip. The one trick is getting the extrusion up the forestay. To do this, we used our old forestay (because it is somewhat rigid and easy to feed through the extrusion while it is still on the ground) to guide a piece of string/twine through the extrusion. We then attached the string to the bottom of the new forestay, that is attached to the mast, and were able to pull the forestay through the extrusion while at the same time lifting the extrusion up the forestay. They do something similar to this on the sailrite video. Though, I don't remember them telling the viewer how they got the string/twine through the extrusion in the first place.

Edited by - MiNO on 06/11/2009 13:25:45

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.