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Can I get my C-25 to point better?

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Initially Posted - 06/15/2009 : 15:21:51

I'm a bit frustrated about this area of performance on my Catalina 25 Tall Rig/Fin keel. It seems I can no closer than 45 degrees. I do have a traveler, boom vang, cunningham and an adjustable back stay. (One of the previous owners rigged her for racing)

The main sail is older and a bit pooched, it also doesn't seem like it wants to go ALL the way up the mast, like there's about 3 to 6 inches where it just won't go up but it will go up where all the wrinkles come out.

I sail with a hank on 110 or 130 up front that seem to be in pretty good shape.

She does get over 6kts and I feel like I could race her if she'd just point to wind better. I was on a Catalina 27 last week that was pointing much better and my friend's Olson 30 seems to sail straight into the wind. I took a friend out sailing who has a TR/WK and his points about the same, he thought he was taking a hit for having the wing keel. ON GPS, it looks like we're both tracking about the same.

Anyone else have this problem and hopefully was able to resolve it or is this just part of sailing a Catalina 25?

Peter Powers
1979 TR/FK #1390
~Stephanos~
Bayview Marina,
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 15:35:08

Start here...
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19996

Try posting a GPS tracklog and we (I) can peel off your angles and see whether you are doing better or worse than you think...

From where I'm sitting right now you sound like you are doing OK. I'm tacking through 120 degrees, but am not the norm.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 15:53:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Start here...
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19996

Try posting a GPS tracklog and we (I) can peel off your angles and see whether you are doing better or worse than you think...

From where I'm sitting right now you sound like you are doing OK. I'm tacking through 120 degrees, but am not the norm.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

thanks for the link. I don't have a GPS yet (Went for a VHF first) but maybe I can get my friend with his GPS to come out for another sail.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 16:08:51

I'm PHRF racing my C25 fin keel and have some pointing issues. Here's what I've done.

(1) rake the mast back 4 inches. My helm is nearly perfectly balanced - just a wee bit of weather helm. Mast is way back compared to stock.

(2) follow Steve Milby's guide for tuning the rigging with an adjustable backstay. Backstay on hard means the forestay is hard, mast is bowed forward in the middle, head of the mast has come back 8 inches.

(3) make sure you sheet the jib inside the lifelines - makes a huge difference like 5 degrees or more. Skirt!

(4) a new Ulman full batten loose footed main will add a lot of pointing. Flatten main for pointing. Outhaul on, cunningham just a little.

(5) get all the weight out of the bow. Get as much as you can out of the stern. Obviously we have fuel, crew, and an outboard hanging back there. My boat is always squatting by the stern.

(6) our traveller is mostly ineffective but don't forget to use it. Travel up to put the boom just shy of centerline.

(7) don't over hike. I belive the boat likes to heel about 20 degrees.

(8) I made a barberhauler to get the jib in even more, helps a little.

(9) don't even think about pointing and a roller furler. I have all hank on sails.

If you do all this you'll STILL get outpointed, but not as much.

Indiscipline hard on the wind at full hull speed.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 17:16:40

If you are pointing to 45º of the wind, be happy. Very few boats point any higher than that, and even fewer can do it effectively.

Edited by - on

Rich G
Navigator

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Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 20:08:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 
(3) make sure you sheet the jib inside the lifelines - makes a huge difference like 5 degrees or more. Skirt!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Really? Don't the stanchions and lifelines interfere? Are you using stock sheet blocks on the track? I'll have to try this one . . .

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2009 : 22:27:58

Come on, Jim--fess up... You installed a new track inside the lifelines, right? (You'd better keep it a secret from the PHRF committee and the C-25/250 Nationals Chief Measurer.)

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 06:09:03

When I saw the heading to this thread I immediately thought of Steve Milby's guide for tuning, of course Jim tackled that one. And then much to my surprise Jim talks about the genoa (INSIDE the lifelines?) Who'da thought? With Firefox as a browser you can get a "zoom image" add on and I used this to take a closer look at Jim's pic. It seems he's using the standard track. I can't wait to try this one!

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 07:10:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 I'm PHRF racing my C25 fin keel and have some pointing issues. Here's what I've done.

(1) rake the mast back 4 inches. My helm is nearly perfectly balanced - just a wee bit of weather helm. Mast is way back compared to stock.

(2) follow Steve Milby's guide for tuning the rigging with an adjustable backstay. Backstay on hard means the forestay is hard, mast is bowed forward in the middle, head of the mast has come back 8 inches.

(3) make sure you sheet the jib inside the lifelines - makes a huge difference like 5 degrees or more. Skirt!

(4) a new Ulman full batten loose footed main will add a lot of pointing. Flatten main for pointing. Outhaul on, cunningham just a little.

(5) get all the weight out of the bow. Get as much as you can out of the stern. Obviously we have fuel, crew, and an outboard hanging back there. My boat is always squatting by the stern.

(6) our traveller is mostly ineffective but don't forget to use it. Travel up to put the boom just shy of centerline.

(7) don't over hike. I belive the boat likes to heel about 20 degrees.

(8) I made a barberhauler to get the jib in even more, helps a little.

(9) don't even think about pointing and a roller furler. I have all hank on sails.

If you do all this you'll STILL get outpointed, but not as much.

Indiscipline hard on the wind at full hull speed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Really great advice guys, I really need to tune the rigging first. Stephanos is all hank on even though I do have a roller furling kit, I haven't installed it.

Pretty much the only weight I have in the bow is the sails and some sleeping bags but I think overall I have too much junk on board. I need to go through it all and figure out what I can take home.

So loose footed sails are the new thing? The Owen 30 I'm crewing on for Dallas Race Week next week has a loose footed main as well....

We will skirt the foresail but I do think my tracks are on the outside, I need to look at this.

Man I really appreciate this response.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 07:27:16

You will loose several degrees when you install the furler.
Fair your keel.
The Catalina 25 does not point well compared to the boats owned by most people who care how high they point; most people who care about performance would not buy a C-25 when there are so many J-24s, Merits, Capris, Sonars, S-2 Grand Slams, Melges', San Juans, Santanas, C&Cs, etc, etc, etc. The best you can hope for from a C-25 is decent performance for an over weight boat and good helm feel; it can deliver that if you leave the furler off.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 08:29:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 You will loose several degrees when you install the furler.
Fair your keel.
The Catalina 25 does not point well compared to the boats owned by most people who care how high they point; most people who care about performance would not buy a C-25 when there are so many J-24s, Merits, Capris, Sonars, S-2 Grand Slams, Melges', San Juans, Santanas, C&Cs, etc, etc, etc. The best you can hope for from a C-25 is decent performance for an over weight boat and good helm feel; it can deliver that if you leave the furler off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, I bought her to day sail on the lake and have a safe boat that's really nice down below. We have a 2.5 year old that really loves sailing! We've also really enjoyed crashing overnight on the boat, we are taking FULL advantage of that before it gets too hot down here in Texas. So far it's been amazing, cool nights with no bugs.

Anyways, it was after I bought her that I found how vibrant our racing community is. Obviously I'd be on the "B" fleet and I have that high PRHF rating but I want to have a fighting chance. I've already decided against installing the roller furler as hanking on a jib is not a big deal. For now, until I get my boat's issues resolved, I'm crewing on other boats.

Ahhh fairing the keel, I had to google it, great tip.

Edited by - PCP777 on 06/16/2009 08:34:20

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 09:14:54

Yes, I have installed an inner jib track. In that photo, we had just rounded up. I had the jib on the outside track, which is like "travelling down" on the jib to help ease the pressure a little.

When you have the jib cars on the inner track you have to have your crew go forward and lift the foot of the jib over the lifelines while the other crew sheets in. On a race boat the call to foredeck is "skirt!". Or "skirt, please" on a nice boat.

This makes a huge difference in pointing, especially with a deck sweeper 155% jib (not shown in my photo).

I race local PHRF not in our Nationals, I can move the jib cars between in inner and outer track in 10 seconds.

I would LOVE to make a real traveller and go to mid boom sheeting. I never use the pop-top anyhow. Cost $, though.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 11:52:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 Yes, I have installed an inner jib track. In that photo, we had just rounded up. I had the jib on the outside track, which is like "travelling down" on the jib to help ease the pressure a little.

When you have the jib cars on the inner track you have to have your crew go forward and lift the foot of the jib over the lifelines while the other crew sheets in. On a race boat the call to foredeck is "skirt!". Or "skirt, please" on a nice boat.

This makes a huge difference in pointing, especially with a deck sweeper 155% jib (not shown in my photo).

I race local PHRF not in our Nationals, I can move the jib cars between in inner and outer track in 10 seconds.

I would LOVE to make a real traveller and go to mid boom sheeting. I never use the pop-top anyhow. Cost $, though.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My traveler is on top of my cabin house, across the entrance to the cabin. You can see it in the far right bottom corner in this photo, is this what you're talking about? I use it all the time and it does seem to make a difference.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 13:21:58

Yes, Peter, that is exactly what I'd like to go to and I believe it would be a big step forward in performance.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 13:55:48

When I hear people say the C25 is too heavy, too slow, can't point, etc., that hasn't been my experience. For the last couple of years that I owned my C25 T/FK, just for the fun of it, I didn't race with the handicap fleet - I raced with the J24 one design fleet, all of which raced with spinnakers. Commonly, my C25 would be the third boat to round the windward mark, in a fleet of 6-7 J24s. After that, the Js usually (but not always) left her behind, because I usually raced singlehanded and non-spin. She occasionally beat 1-2 J24s to the finish line. During the years that she raced in a handicap fleet, it was rare that an S2 7.9 could beat her, and the Catalina 27s never beat her. She beat a San Juan 24 consistently, and she frequently beat an Etchell that was racing non-spin. She once pointed so high that she forced a Hobie 33 to tack away. If a C25 is well-prepped, with a clean, smooth bottom, keel and rudder, and if it has a good racing anti-fouling paint, and good quality dacron sails, and, if her sails are well-trimmed, it can acquit itself well among racing boats.

We had a lot of C25s at my lake, and only a few had good racing records, because most weren't serious enough about racing to prep their boats really well, but those who did, and who sailed them well, usually were at the head of the pack.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 06/16/2009 : 15:54:33

I agree with Steve completely.
I regularly beat a J-24 a Catalina 27 and a Soling 27 - all racing JAM.
Preperation is the key - good sails, clean bottom and correct tuning.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 07:42:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I agree with Steve completely.
I regularly beat a J-24 a Catalina 27 and a Soling 27 - all racing JAM.
Preperation is the key - good sails, clean bottom and correct tuning.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So there IS hope. Terrific news. So I have all three things to work on. First I need to tune my rig, it's too loose. I have a friend at the marina who has an 89 Catalina 25 that's going to help me with that, he has the gauge and all that. After this season is over, I'm going to get a complete bottom job done. probably about the same time I'm going to get new sales. There's a local guy that's apparently a wizard with sails.

I figured this boat could rock based solely on all the money a FO spent on race rigging her. My plan is to bring her back to her former glory.

Steve and Derek, you've made my day.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 08:59:03

Peter - don't tighten the rig too much. Loose is fast, especially off the wind. On my Loos guage (you only need the smaller one) the readings on the front of the guage (don't bother converting to the back)are, from aft to forward 20,35,25 - and yes, the leeward shrouds will wave in the breeze. (These measurements are taken with the boom vang and backstay adjuster off and the mainsheet loose.)

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MurphyPeoples
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 09:23:51

I'm really enjoying this topic.
Thanks guys for continuing to post.
Murphy

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 09:39:13

keep this in mind - speed before pointing! Meaning, foot off to get the boat up to speed so the keel develops lift before sheeting in and pointing up.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/17/2009 : 19:40:32

Peter, before you get your hopes up to outrun J-24s, you need to learn more about Derek's custom-designed sails (including a high-aspect main), not to mention the crew he flies in from around the country...

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/18/2009 : 10:04:26

My sails were dacron. The J24s were the ones who had the expensive racing sails.

I don't mean to imply, of course, that the C25 can routinely beat J24s scratch, but I have occasionally beaten them scratch. But the C25 can sail well enough to stay within striking range on the windward leg, so that, if the J24 makes a mistake on the downwind leg, the C25 can take advantage of it. Likewise, if the J24 doesn't sail the windward leg very well, he might not be able to make up for it on the downwind leg, especially when the handicap difference comes into play. IMHO, if you take the J24s spinnaker away from it, a well-prepped C25 can be competitive with it. If he fouls up his spinnaker run, your C25 has a fighting chance to beat him.

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 06/18/2009 : 11:19:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 My sails were dacron. The J24s were the ones who had the expensive racing sails.

I don't mean to imply, of course, that the C25 can routinely beat J24s scratch, but I have occasionally beaten them scratch. But the C25 can sail well enough to stay within striking range on the windward leg, so that, if the J24 makes a mistake on the downwind leg, the C25 can take advantage of it. Likewise, if the J24 doesn't sail the windward leg very well, he might not be able to make up for it on the downwind leg, especially when the handicap difference comes into play. IMHO, if you take the J24s spinnaker away from it, a well-prepped C25 can be competitive with it. If he fouls up his spinnaker run, your C25 has a fighting chance to beat him.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

LOL, I know how fast those J 24's and J 29's are. Yesterday I crewed on an Olson 30, and we came in third place overall without handicaps. We were beat by an 11 meter and an Evelyn 32, we had two J-29's and another Olson 30 breathing down our backs. What a blast, there were about 25 boats total racing last night. Next week I'm crewing on that Olson 30 for Dallas Race Week, we'll be racing every night.

last night he let me take the helm all the way across the lake under the stars, that Olson is soooo fast and points so well. I have to say though, my Catalina is so much more livable down below. I know I'll never be able to keep up with the big Olsons and J-29's etc, but if I can rock on the B fleet and win a few times that will be good for me. My buddy in his Catalina 27 took first on the B fleet last night. What a great time.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/18/2009 : 15:11:59

You can for sure win the B Fleet in a Catalina 25 and you'll find the boat is most competitive in a mixed PHRF fleet down wind in light air (assuming you have a big spinnaker). My boat loves to broad reach under spin. Stay close on the upwind leg. Get them down wind.

I was 2nd Place PHRF D in the Newport - San Diego 2009 (1st was a Capri 25). Beat every PHRF C Boat. Beat all but 3 PHRF B boats. First monohull overall in Double Handed Division. This was a 66 mile offshore race mostly a broad reach with winds that build late (like after 10 PM).

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 06/29/2009 : 09:37:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 You can for sure win the B Fleet in a Catalina 25 and you'll find the boat is most competitive in a mixed PHRF fleet down wind in light air (assuming you have a big spinnaker). My boat loves to broad reach under spin. Stay close on the upwind leg. Get them down wind.

I was 2nd Place PHRF D in the Newport - San Diego 2009 (1st was a Capri 25). Beat every PHRF C Boat. Beat all but 3 PHRF B boats. First monohull overall in Double Handed Division. This was a 66 mile offshore race mostly a broad reach with winds that build late (like after 10 PM).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Cool, I'm probably going to try to fly my spin on Wednesday. How many people do you use for your crew?

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 06/29/2009 : 10:48:00

I noticed that I have some short sail tracks on either side of my cabin house. If I put the sail on that, I guess it would help but I'm not sure how to rig it around the lifelines.

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