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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Jib sheets

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5431 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/30/2009 : 21:27:17

Was looking at my recent copy of SAIL magazine, and what did I see?

A discussion on not to use two jib sheets, not to tie them on using a bowline, and how to tie a cow hitch. This, they claimed, would not catch on the stays.

Great minds must think alike?

By the way, I just created a loop in my sheet, and tied a 1/4 inch whipping line doubled up through the clew and clinched the loop with the whipping line. It has been working fine so far the past few months.

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 05:46:47

That's how my dad taught me 40 years ago! The [url="http://www.iwillknot.com/cow_hitch/"]Cow Hitch[/url] is a great solution for the jib sheets. My only problem came when I bought a new 110 and wanted to transfer my still good sheets from the old to the new. The knot had become so compact that it was about impossible to untie. On the other hand, how often is that going to happen unless your race and if so you'd untie it enough to where it wouldn't bind.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 06:12:02

Just wondering. How do you attach your whisker pole to the sail?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5909 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 07:28:47

With all due respect to Sail magazine, I crew for a lot of racers on the Chesapeake Bay, and can't remember the last time I saw one using a cow hitch for their jibsheets. Most, by far, use bowline knots. I used a cow hitch for years on my C25, and, IMHO, it snagged at least as often as bowlines, and perhaps more, so I have gone back to using bowlines.

The cow hitch would be lighter in weight than two bowline knots, and might be a small advantage for use on light air jibsheets, but for a 155% genoa, or smaller, I'm inclined to stay with the bowlines.

If you buy new jibsheets, you can buy one long one, and attach it with a cow hitch, and use it that way for awhile to see if it performs as you expect it to. If not, you can always cut the line in two and attach it with bowlines. Try it both ways and make your own decision.

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Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 07:48:25

With all due respect to SAIL, I disagree. They have their opinion and that's all it is. Bottom line is whatever works for you, I've tried both and prefer the bowline.

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Peregrine
Admiral

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830 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 09:10:26

Racers who do a lot of sail changes will use snap shackles. They can't take the time to tie and untie sheets.
I use a continuous sheet with a cow hitch on a snap shackle.
It doesn't catch and I can remove the sheets when I'm away from the boat.
I tie a line through the clew and around the furled sail.
This saves the sheets from sitting in the sun and secures the sail in case there is a storm while I'm away.
I have square shaped snap shackle and I can't find another for my light air sheets.
It doesn't rely on a pin to release it, you just press down on the top and it snaps open.
Anyone seen a shackle like it?

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 09:52:10

John, wouldn't your snap shackle answer the whisker pole question also? Otherwise I guess a [url="http://www.iwillknot.com/butterfly_knot/"]butterfly knot[/url] might get the job done for you.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/01/2009 : 16:43:31

With a single line sheet and cow hitch, one method for attaching a whisker pole to the clew is to tie a short piece of line, 1/4" or 5/16", in a loop through the clew. Attach the pole to the loop first and then the other end to the mast. Works well on our C-22 and the C-25.
The other method is to tie the cow hitch to a short piece of smaller line, again 5/16" works well, with a bowline tied in the sheet end, then attach the short line to the clew with another bowline, leaving about 3-4" between the clew and the sheet. The pole can then be hooked on the short line in the 3-4" space.

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/05/2009 15:55:41

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2009 : 08:33:50

Bruce and all,

Having changed to color specific lines I've given up on boleyns and all the others preferring instead to sew them on. I pass a line through the sail grommet and parrallel the lines as they come through (having relieved the core partially for six or so inches effecting a taper) then I stitch the lines together and tape them making a smooth eyelet. I do this for the red line as well as the green line.

Works for me

Val on Calista # 3936, Patchogue, N.Y.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2009 : 10:02:15

I just got my mail forwarded and um, yeah... Saw the Bovine Hitch in Sail. From the pic it looks different than the described Cow Hitch... To each their own, but as discussed here before - not my first choice either.

sten

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2009 : 10:51:31

Boleyns . . . is that Anne?

I found that the cow/girth hitch could slip -- it works better when there's equal pressure on both exiting lines. I did find that when I used one line to tie two half hitches on the other as they exited the grommet, the slipping stopped. It's a little bigger knot and capable of the aforesaid snagging, but less so than a bowline (or boleyn, Anne or otherwise). Sorry, Val, it just struck me funny!

A common warning about snap shackles is that they really hurt when they hit someone or something on the bow, but I guess that's an occupational hazard if you're changing foresails in a race.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:07:55

A shackle on the clew, with the sail flogging, can hurt people and rigging. A friend had one hit the mast hard enough to break the shackle.

I can't imagine a cow hitch "slipping"--mine just tightened to the point that it took me about a half hour with a marlin spike to break it loose. However, looking at some knots recently, I'm wondering if a clove hitch would be less likely to catch on a shroud. It's sorta like the cow hitch, but the tails go in opposite ways through the clew and the loop, so the loop might be less of an obstacle against the shroud.

(Imagine the carabiner is the clew.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/06/2009 08:09:39

Rich G
Navigator

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226 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 08:33:05

The problem with a clove hitch is that it binds on itself and is impossible to untie under tension.

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 12:39:57

This is one of those round and round you go things as to whether bowlines, cowhitch or buntline hitches or some other method are best. Everyone has their own opinion depending on how they sail. I usually use bowlines but sometimes a buntline hitch. As I change sails often enough underway, the sheets need to be versatile. As far as the whisker pole question goes - the whisker pole should go on the sheet, not on the clew cringle or a loop there. That is for safety, ease of setting, taking down, and so that the sheet can be eased in an emergency.

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 12:58:23

I use an aluminum caribiner just like Dave shows. I have 7 jibs, and one set of sheets.

I used to have stainless steel but that can indeed hurt. Using the aluminum its plenty strong and light enough not to hurt anyone.

You have to have the kind with the barrel that screws closed.

I got mine at REI.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 15:47:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 

I got mine at REI.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hooray, another person that believes climbing gear is just fine for marine use

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2009 : 20:28:53

Regarding the safety issue of the whisker pole attached on a loop of line through the clew cringle, with lake sailing I've never been in conditions where it might present a dangerous condition to release the pole from the sail. On my fixed, maximum length pole on the C-22, I have a continuous line running under the pole connecting to both release pulls and taped in the middle of the pole. Regardless of which end is attached to the clew loop line, I can easily release it by pulling on the line to open the pin in the pole-end fitting. Admittedly, the larger, heavier C-25 pole, an ADJ7-15HD, and the larger genoa, are more challenging, but I haven't used the pole on Recess in difficult sailing conditions.
Setting the pole on the clew loop line couldn't be easier. Pull the clew toward you with the lazy sheet while holding the pole, push the pole end down on the loop which activates the spring loaded pin, push the sail out while extending the pole and attach the pole to the mast ring. The real advantage of the loop comes in jybing the pole. Release the pole from the mast and push that pole end straight up in front of the mast as the genoa comes across. Using the pole like a broom, push the sail out while bringing the pole end back down and reattach it to the mast. Very quick; collapsing the pole or disconnecting it from the sail is not needed, but if you find the pole too long, collapsing one section is not bad.

Edited by - dmpilc on 07/06/2009 20:32:29

PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2009 : 10:45:19

Whisker pole to clew can certainly be done but is not good practice. Case in point: while racing in a typical SF breeze my crew hooked the end to the bowline loop. I saw that but thought we're set and racing let it go. But, when we tried to take the pole down at the last minute before rounding the mark, it got away from him, pulled the section out and flailed around until it shook itself off and into the water. Not happy losing nearly two hundred bucks of pole and end fitting! Plus that thing could have hit him. If it had been on the sheet like it was supposed to be, even if the section had pulled out, it would have slid down the sheet instead of flailing about. So, do use caution.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2009 : 20:11:29

I can see where having the pole come apart with one section still attached to the clew would be a very bad situation. I'll keep that in mind with the C-25.

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