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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 06:51:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mrapkins
 [quote]

Your description of heaving to is what I've always seen. However, it always misses one point. "Tack without touching the sheets" is all well and good, but from which point of sail? Broad reach, close hauled? I'm guessing that's an important point that I've NEVER seen written.

So please could you add this one last point, or tell me that it doesn't matter.

I really appreciate all your advice. Thank you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think it matters.

You need to pass the bow through th ewind and get the jib backwinded, then trim the main to stall out the boat. If youare pointing, the main is already set. At other points of sail you may have to pull in the sheets to get the right trim.

Most of my experience with heaving to in our boat is by mistake when someone releases the jib sheets too late. Somehow this always happens on our last tack as we go for the line in a race start.

Which raises an interesting point... If you are hove-to, you should try to be on Stbd tack so that you have rights over other vessels. This means that you are showing the Stbd side of the boom to the wind. Of course this is only in theory since reality says tonnage rules, especially when being driven out of control in a gale.

Edited by - on

mrapkins
Navigator

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USA
124 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 07:42:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mrapkins
 [quote]

Your description of heaving to is what I've always seen. However, it always misses one point. "Tack without touching the sheets" is all well and good, but from which point of sail? Broad reach, close hauled? I'm guessing that's an important point that I've NEVER seen written.

So please could you add this one last point, or tell me that it doesn't matter.

I really appreciate all your advice. Thank you.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think it matters.

You need to pass the bow through th ewind and get the jib backwinded, then trim the main to stall out the boat. If youare pointing, the main is already set. At other points of sail you may have to pull in the sheets to get the right trim.

Most of my experience with heaving to in our boat is by mistake when someone releases the jib sheets too late. Somehow this always happens on our last tack as we go for the line in a race start.

Which raises an interesting point... If you are hove-to, you should try to be on Stbd tack so that you have rights over other vessels. This means that you are showing the Stbd side of the boom to the wind. Of course this is only in theory since reality says tonnage rules, especially when being driven out of control in a gale.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you for your answer. Do you recommend furling a large genoa a bit. Can a 150 genoa balance our puny mainsail?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 08:09:50

I have gotten hove to on a 155% Genoa (by mistake)

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 09:07:04

I know one thing for sure, I'm practicing heaving to tomorrow when I take her out next. Thanks to all of you for the great advice I find on this forum!

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 09:36:06

The stronger the wind the more I will furl in the jib when heaving to. I have a 130. You can have too much foresail out and it can make it harder to heave to. Go check out the video on Utube - there are some that are animated which make it very simple. Getting back under sail is actually trickier to me that heaving to.

Edited by - on

Blue Nose
1st Mate

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67 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2009 : 11:47:03

Here is the Utube link - you can see it in action and it will explain how to do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjwP6F_N9s

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 12:01:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Blue Nose
 Here is the Utube link - you can see it in action and it will explain how to do it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbjwP6F_N9s
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the link, this is a good video.

Edited by - on

MiNO
1st Mate

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USA
32 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 15:52:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 BTW, IMHO, when a serious squall line is approaching (meaning winds that could exceed 50), a C-25 shouldn't have any sails up unless Jim B. is skipper.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How would you heave-to then?

I recently almost left the dock the other day with 4 others with no sailing experience. I barely decided to stay at the slip because the winds were a little much (15-20) to leave under sail (my engine is dead). I was pretty happy with that decision when a squall appeared out of no where that blew 34 knots gusting to 41 (as registered at the near-by NOAA bouy) I was shocked at the power of those winds. Three of us could barely push the boat away from the dock to place another bumper between the boat and the dock. The wind was blowing towards shore, so heaving-to wouldn't have been an option. Lake Pontchartrain is only 15-20 feet deep also, and the waves where super choppy and frightening. I think I would have thrown out the anchor had I been out there, and my guests would have probably been sick. Since then, I've been reading a lot on heavy weather sailing and recently purchased the book by Lin and Larry Pardey on Heavy Weather Sailing. They describe many techniques for heaving-to. They don't recommend backing the jib because eventually, if the wind gets strong enough, it will push the bow too far over. Granted, since I would never take this boat offshore, I doubt I would ever run into winds stronger than 50 knots for a long period of time.
-Kurt

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 20:13:53

My point exactly. Heaving to is a good way to chill out in "reasonable conditions" for the boat, and 40-60 kt. winds are not reasonable for a C-25, period. No canvas, period. Get outa Dodge, get an anchor down, or turn and run with it under bare poles--the forces are too great for our little coastal cruisers, and you won't be able to stay head-to-wind with the engine or the sails. If the seas become so huge that running threatens a broach, then you've apparently broken the first rule of sailing--you've taken a boat into a situation where it wasn't meant to go. You'll probably survive, but....

Edited by - on

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 23:27:13

Not being able to stay into to the wind was my experance. Even with full throttle on a new Honda 9.9 she would fall off quickly.
I think this was partially due to the act that the prop would come out with the swells.

I wonder what other folks have done when caught out in winds in excess of 35

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 07:40:07

If you have sea room, I think the best way to cope with way too much wind is to lower all sails and run downwind, with the engine running at low to moderate speed. That's the way we did it on a 28' inboard boat, and some folks did it on a nearby Cal 25 with outboard, in about 50 kt winds. Running downwind, the Cal, which is very similar to a Catalina 25, had no problem with it's outboard motor cavitating, and the engine gave both boats enough power to maneuver, and to always have steerageway.

Steer downwind in the gusts, and then steer towards your objective in the lulls. When the wind is gusting, the waves will immediately grow bigger and steeper and more dangerous. When the waves are big and steep enough to jeopardize the boat, you want them to hit the boat directly astern, so they don't knock the stern sideways, because the next wave might roll the boat over. It's like a boxer's "one-two punch." The first wave sets you up, and the second wave knocks you out, so don't let any waves knock your stern sideways. If they hit directly astern, the boat can stand up to them much longer. When the wind lulls, the waves will diminish in their size and violence, and you will probably be able to steer diagonally across them, to get closer to a desired objective, such as a sheltered anchorage.

If your heading is more or less parallel to a shoreline, and if your boat is to leeward of the shore, work your way closer to shore during the lulls, because any trees or buildings will impede the wind, and the waves closer to shore will be smaller because of the shorter fetch.

If you're in an area where strong tidal currents are running, keep in mind that currents are stronger in deeper water, but waves tend to grow larger in shoaling water, so waters of moderate depth are probably a good place to be.

If you find yourself in such a situation, it's easy to panic, but panic causes your mind to freeze at a time when you need it to be clear and you need ideas to flow freely. Your safety, and that of your passengers, is in your hands, and you have to "cowboy up" at a time when any rational person would much rather go below and hide.

A sailboat is incredibly seaworthy, and can take a great deal. If it starts to behave in a way that evidences a lack of control, ask yourself why it's behaving that way. Analyze the problem, and find a way to reduce the bad behavior.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 07:50:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I wonder what other folks have done when caught out in winds in excess of 35<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I agree with the downwind strategy if needed...

Caveat: This is my personal experience and feeling only... Up into the 30s, a proper storm jib and double-reefed main (standard rig) will hold you into the wind better than the engine, because that rig will give you more drive and therefore steerage. By the time you get to 40, you're beyond the designed capabilities of a mid-weight coastal cruiser. (Some heavyweights our size are the Pacific Seacraft Dana and the Cape Dory 25D.) You'll be at the mercy of forces bigger than you and the boat. 60 is almost beyond most recreational sailors' comprehension.

IMHO, your best tools are your eyes and your VHF--keeping track of what's happening around you and getting out of harm's way. The principle criterion for a "blue water boat" is that it is designed to handle this stuff, because it'll be out there where there's no hiding. The C-25 and 250 are not blue water boats.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/18/2009 07:53:08

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 08:11:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...the next wave might roll the boat over. It's like a boxer's "one-two punch." The first wave sets you up, and the second wave knocks you out, so don't let any waves knock your stern sideways.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This is one of the trickier, more counter-intuitive moments in sailing. When a big wave passes under you, the water moves in two directions--first it moves toward your stern as the wave builds, and then it moves forward as the wave passes. If you're running with the waves, that forward motion causes your rudder to momentarily work in reverse, as if the boat were momentarily backing up. The boat veers in one direction, you instinctively steer in the other direction, which is exactly the opposite of what you need. The boat swings wildly opposite to your steering... Then Steve's "two-punch"--the next wave catches you "abeam". This sequence is the most frequent cause of a broach.

About the best way to prevent this when in large following seas is to try your hardest not to overreact to the boat's movement. With the rudder centered, she'll swing a little one way, and then back the other way. Make steering corrections only when you can see that the water is moving against you--not with you. You can tell by looking closely. But mostly, just try to keep the boat going directly with the seas, with as little rudder correction as possible.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/18/2009 08:12:52

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 08:47:26

Sailing to windward in big winds is difficult to do, and hard on boat and crew. If you have to do it, you need a tightly tucked double reef, a storm jib, and you have to trim your sails flat. You have to steer just far enough off the wind to keep it driving. As the waves hit the bow, they'll bring the boat to a shuddering stop, and you'll have to bear off a little to get it moving again. If you have an inboard engine, you should motor/sail with the engine for extra power, to help drive the boat through the choppy waves and keep it moving. If you can carry both sails, you should do so. You should keep in mind that the sails will generate much more power than the engine, so, if the conditions become so bad that you can no longer sail or motor/sail to windward, don't even think about trying to motor to windward, because the engine, whether inboard or outboard, won't generate enough power. When you reach that point, that's when you have to find an alternative to sailing to windward.

The same principles apply that I talked about earlier with regard to working your way towards a windward shore, where the waves will be smaller. The factor that impedes you when sailing to windward is the constant smashing of the waves against the bow, which brings the boat's forward progress to a stop. Therefore, if you can maneuver the boat along a windward shore, where the waves will be smaller, they won't impede you nearly as much.

If the conditions become so bad that you have to bear off and run downwind, make that decision while you still have enough fuel left to run the engine for awhile. Don't keep trying to drive the boat to windward until you burn up all your fuel. You'll probably need some fuel to maneuver the boat later.

The good news is that, if you have to turn and run downwind, you might actually find sailing downwind to be fun in 25-35 kts of wind, with only a little patch of jib flying and perhaps the motor running. In higher winds, it starts to become more of a chore.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/18/2009 10:14:23

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
44 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 09:17:37

The good news is that, if you have to turn and run downwind, you might actually find sailing downwind to be fun in 25-35 kts of wind, with only a little patch of jib flying and perhaps the motor running. In higher winds, it starts to become more of a chore.

Dosnt the speed of the boat make the engine run faster?, due to the water pushing the prop, causing it to rev up. And wont this damage the engine?

Or am I mistaken?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 09:42:00

I'm not a mechanical engineer or engine expert, John, but have never seen an engine rev up appreciably when run at low speed while motor/sailing. I often motor/sail all day when in a hurry to get somewhere, and motor/sailing reduces the load on the engine, and significantly reduces the amount of fuel consumed, but I have never seen or heard of any damage caused by it. When you take the load off of a boat engine, that would be roughly the equivalent of revving an automobile engine slightly while it's in "park." As long as you don't grossly over-rev it, I don't see that it would harm the engine.

If an outboard engine has a short shaft, sometimes the prop will come up out of the water when the boat hobby-horses through choppy waves, and, when it does that, the engine will rev up. That's called "cavitating," and is certainly not good for the engine. Inboard engines are extremely unlikely to cavitate, and neither inboards nor outboards are likely to cavitate when motorsailing downwind. An outboard engine will sometimes cavitate when motoring or motor/sailing to windward, depending on how choppy the waves are and how much the boat is heeling.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/18/2009 10:03:16

John Pittman
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 10:33:19

Thank you Sir, for the excellent advise.

Would a broad reach be a comprmise between dead down wind risking the chance of broaching and directly into the wind taking such a pounding?

I get worried going upwind sheeting hard because I steeer up in the gusts but lose momentium and fall off. But if I fall off to much ( between close and broad reach) and with the lack of speed and there is a chance of losing control. If that makes sense, its like you aare suddenly stationary and then the windgrabs you and you have little control untill you are moving again.

I was broad reaching and felt I had more control by letting the sails out all the way in gusts. It was also the point of sail that took me back to my bouy.
The biggest problem was when the wind peaked not only did I feel overpowered wind wise but was also taking the swells beam on, which did not seem good.

Once again I apperciate everyone sharing there experance and expert advise.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 11:13:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Pittman
 Thank you Sir, for the excellent advise.

Would a broad reach be a comprmise between dead down wind risking the chance of broaching and directly into the wind taking such a pounding?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> In heavy weather it isn't the wind that represents the greatest danger - it is the size and shape and direction of the waves that are generated by the wind. Reaching exposes your beam to the seas, and, if the waves are big and steep enough, that's the greatest danger. The storm sailing techniques that you should use change as the conditions change. If the conditions permit you to reach, then reaching is a good technique. When the conditions no longer allow you to do that safely, then you have to change your technique. Running DDW is one of the safest techniques, as long as you can keep your stern squarely to the waves, but there may come a time when even that is no longer safe, because the boat might be racing down the face of the waves with too much speed. What I have been describing are techniques to use when you can no longer safely sail on a reach.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I get worried going upwind sheeting hard because I steeer up in the gusts but lose momentium and fall off. But if I fall off to much ( between close and broad reach) and with the lack of speed and there is a chance of losing control. If that makes sense, its like you aare suddenly stationary and then the windgrabs you and you have little control untill you are moving again.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> The problem you're describing will go away as you gain experience sailing in those conditions. You should study sail trim, so that your sails will be trimmed correctly for the wind and seas that you are sailing in. Then you should practice steering a course that keeps the boat at a constant angle to the wind, because that will keep the sails driving with their maximum power most of the time. When you coordinate good steering with good sail trim, then you won't be zigzagging back and forth or having so much difficulty with control.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I was broad reaching and felt I had more control by letting the sails out all the way in gusts. It was also the point of sail that took me back to my bouy.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As long as that technique was working for you, it was a good technique, but.....(see below)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The biggest problem was when the wind peaked not only did I feel overpowered wind wise but was also taking the swells beam on, which did not seem good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> .....you sensed that it was no longer safe for you to continue taking the seas beam on, and that's when it became time for you to start thinking about some other technique. Fortunately, you made it back before it got any worse, so it worked out for you, but, as a general rule, when your instincts are telling you that what you're doing is no longer safe, don't ignore those instincts. Your instincts are probably right.

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