Association Forum - More dumb cruising questions...

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Cruising Forum

More dumb cruising questions...

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/14/2009 : 06:58:31

#1. Gas. How much is too much? We have 3 gas cans. 1 is plastic 2 are metal. The plastic can can easily be fastened to almost anything and stowed almost anyplace. 2 steel cans fit in the cockpit (1 in the locker, the other under the tiller at the back of the cockpit) 3 gas cans seems excessive though.

#2. Radar Reflector. Do I need one on Georgian Bay? You folks who have sailed there before can you tip me off whether there is enough traffic to worry about it? Seems to me the anchorages are all off the beaten path, and we won't be night sailing so I don't think the commercial traffic are a concern. Are they worth having so you get picked up by the Carver-miniums?

#3. Inside vs Outside. I want to get on the outside of the the small craft channel, and do some real sailing in big water where all you see is the horizon. SWMBO wants to stay inside the small craft channel wher eyou see loads of scenery and the water is sheltered, but you mostly motor. Of course SWMBO must be obeyed, so can you sail the inside channels of G-Bay? Anyone with experience willin gto chime in here?

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2009 : 07:37:26

When cruising, I want to carry as much fuel as I can, within reason. I prefer (you can't always have what you want) to have at least enough fuel to go the entire distance planned, and then some. Through experimentation, you need to know how much fuel your boat consumes per hour at a given cruising speed. Then calculate the number of hours it'll take to get there at that speed, and then bring more fuel (at least 1/3 for a short trip, and preferably more.) Motoring to windward against big winds and big seas consumes waaay more fuel than normal, because you have to increase the throttle, to keep the boat moving against the big waves. As your speed slows, you'll have to motor a greater number of hours to make your destination. It's bad to run into foul weather and to run out of fuel. If the weather isn't too bad, you can sail, but it's hard on the boat, and on you and on the family, and it's slow beating to windward. If it gets too rough, you can always turn back and run downwind, either with a little sail or under bare poles, but that takes you away from your intended destination, instead of toward it. In planning your cruise, be aware of any places along the way where you can conveniently pop in for more fuel, or for shelter, in case you run low.

I'm not familiar with Georgian Bay, but it obviously has commercial traffic, and probably some commercial fishing. IMHO, getting hit by a 50 ft. fishing boat would be just about as bad as getting hit by a freighter. Georgian bay undoubtedly has fog, either at night or in daytime. You aren't likely to need a radar reflector often, but you are likely to need one sometime. They are not terribly expensive, and don't occupy much space when folded. Last year I was racing in thick fog on a boat on the Chesapeake Bay, and we raised a radar reflector, and could hear big, powerful engines around us, but couldn't see them. Because of the radar reflector, they said they could see us clearly on their radar scopes, and we could identify ourselves to them by radio, and tell them our location and heading.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/14/2009 07:38:46

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2009 : 13:04:28

Chris,
I agree with Steve about the radar reflector. The best Davis reflector is only about $70 US, and does nearly as well in tests as the $200 lens type that we have permanently mounted on SL's mast. While I've been to the Georgian Bay, I've never been sailing there. However, much better to be seen on the other guy's radar than not. It's relatively cheap insurance. If you get the Davis, make sure to rig it in the "double-catch-rain" configuration (Google it), it's been shown as the most effective manner. Steer clear of the vertical styles, they're only good for power boats that don't heel.

Regarding fuel cans. When we go out for a trip that'll be more than a day, I will carry at a minimum our six gallon regular tank in the fuel locker, and the 3+ gallon plastic that came with our new engine. If it's a longer trip, I've got another plastic 6+ gallon tank for a total of roughly 16-18 gallons of fuel. All have the exact same fitting on top so all I need to do is swap out the hose. I've got a fuel filter fitted onto the hose itself so I don't need to worry about individual filters on each tank. Again, I agree with Steve, carry enough to get you there and then some. Run some trials so you know your consumption rates at various RPM & sea states and keep a record. I've never run out of fuel on a boat and never want to, but I've been uncomfortably close in very rough seas, fortunately we got in w/o running out, but it was a near thing. After that day was when I got the second 6 gallon tank.

Regarding inside/outside, I've found that taking care of SWMBO is always the best course of action. If Rita's miserable, neither of us has a good time. If on the other hand she's happily reading a book, snoozing, or just sight-seeing, I can run the boat without her help, and she's content. A much better outcome than terrified & hanging on with white knuckles (refer to "I've never run out of fuel..." above), bad-bad-bad day, thought we'd have to sell the boat, or at best I was single handing it the rest of the time. Fortunately that didn't turn out to be the case.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/14/2009 13:36:23

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2009 : 13:10:39

1. We carry two 3 gallon tanks. As one nears empty we simply remove it and place the full one in the fuel locker. Of course it depends how far the nearest fuel is. Where we cruise we have never had a problem. 6 gallons gets a small outboard pretty darn far.

2. Yes you need a radar reflector. We have the same tri-lens reflector mounted on the mast as David.

3. Don't know this cruising area. Maybe you can compromise and spend most of the time closer to shore with an occasional jaunt out to open water. Our experience is that you will want to arrive at destinations, get off the boat to sightsee and hike, and wont want to be far our for long. You have to keep the crew happy. For you it may be the sailing, for her it may be the sights and places to visit. Consider yourself very fortunate. There are many on this forum who don't get the chance of a three week cruise with their wife. You'll love it!

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/14/2009 13:13:35

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 06:14:46

Chris,
I agree with what's been said, as much fuel as possible, keep the Mrs. happy, but you need to hear from someone who's familiar with Georgian Bay too. Make sure and do a search within this site and a standard search as to what reflectors are best, there's been a lot of discussion about this, and again, talk to the locals.

Edited by - DaveR on 07/15/2009 06:22:46

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5908 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 06:19:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
[brI want to get on the outside of the the small craft channel, and do some real sailing in big water where all you see is the horizon.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I used to have that yearning, too, but then realized that, if you sail one mile offshore, and look offshore, you'll know pretty much what it's like to be out of sight of land. Just imagine that it looks the same all around you.

In order to get out of sight of land, it'll take about a half day of sailing to get there and another half day to get back. Meanwhile, you are also out of range of shelter, if the weather suddenly turns bad, and out of reach of many of the other boats, if you need an assist. To my way of thinking, it isn't a good place to be in a small boat that's designed for coastal cruising. It's OK to sail offshore, but the time to do it is when you have a good reason to go there, and a boat that's up to it.

Edited by - on

glen
Captain

Members Avatar

359 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 11:29:13

Chris what part of Georgian Bay are you heading to. I have been up in the North Channel a couple of times. You will love it, and will find the other sailors you meet there friendly and help full. We carry a spare 6 gallon gas tank that we secure in the cockpit. And we have also installed a 3 gallon reserve tank inboard. This gives us a total of 15 gallons, and there have been times we were glad to have it. The radar reflector (the vertical tube type) on our boat is secured to the shroud 24 / 7. If you are in the big part of the bay you will need it more then if your in the North Channel area. Also there are some great books and videos on the area. Look them over now to help plan your trip, and don’t forget the charts. Have a great time (wish I was with you)

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 11:34:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
I want to get on the outside of the the small craft channel, and do some real sailing in big water where all you see is the horizon.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Need crew?
I understand that desire. Totally.
Do you night sail? I love to night sail, which gives me a similar experience, but without all the offshore safety equipment like life rafts and EPIRBs. I went out last night, passing the jetties at 8 pm, and sailed straight out from the S.C. coast 8 nm on a beam reach in 10-15kt winds, then turned around and came straight back. Milky Way hung over the moonless sky like a cloud I could touch. I might have been the only person on earth.

Edited by - windsong on 07/15/2009 11:35:32

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 12:33:42

Delliot - if you see this, can you repost the pic you had in this thread of your radar reflector mounted on the boat?? Thanks

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15159

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 13:04:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 
Need crew?
I understand that desire. Totally.
Do you night sail? I love to night sail, which gives me a similar experience, but without all the offshore safety equipment like life rafts and EPIRBs. I went out last night, passing the jetties at 8 pm, and sailed straight out from the S.C. coast 8 nm on a beam reach in 10-15kt winds, then turned around and came straight back. Milky Way hung over the moonless sky like a cloud I could touch. I might have been the only person on earth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Actually I might for the return trip (on the outside) and back into Simcoe through the Canal. SWMBO has 2 weeks of vacation while I have 3.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 14:28:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Milky Way hung over the moonless sky like a cloud I could touch. I might have been the only person on earth.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Michael, you're killin' me.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 14:30:16

Chris,
Here you go:

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 14:43:45

David,
Does it get in the way of your foresail up there?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 16:05:56

Not at all, I occasionally will get the jib halyard wrapped around it when I'm raising it, but that's easily fixed, just flip it around the other side. I'd call it a mild nuisance more than made up with in utility and increased safety for our boat.

I don't recall ever seeing the jib even brush it during a gybe or tack, and the jib can't be cranked in far enough to even touch it before it touches the spreaders first.

If I remember right, I placed it 5' above the spreaders (the number's almost certainly in my original post somewhere). Keep in mind that mine's a tall rig, so make sure you allow for any differences between my taller mast and yours.

Are you planning to get one of the lens type?

Edited to change dimension from 6' to 5' above spreaders.

Edited by - delliottg on 07/15/2009 16:08:34

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 17:10:27

This may seem like a weird thing to ask, but if I don't, maybe no one will...

In order to get true retroreflectivity (reflection back to a given point) in road paint, we cover the paint in spherical glass beads. The light enters the bead, bounces off the back of it, and is reflected back to source.

Has no experimented with a glass bead design for this application? Does radar reflect off glass? From experience, cube corners are far less efficient in retroreflectivity than spheres. It seems to me that if you were to weld together a bunch of half circles, then you would have better reflection than you get with the existing cube corners that are readily available.

Since your reflector is spherical (or close to it) I would expect it to be superior in design to a "cube corner" design. I wish I could see the inside of the reflector you have to better see how it is assembled (I am betting they would be pretty derned easy to make if my hunches are right)

What would you say the diameter of each lobe on your reflector is?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 17:42:17

Chris,
Your description of the glass beads in the road paint is a pretty apt description of the way a Luneberg lens works. However, unless you're a skilled glass worker, I'm not sure how you'd go about making one yourself (but very interested to learn). If you search online you can find the patents for these things, they've been around for a long time, just only (fairly) recently brought into civilian use.

Your cubed corner description is essentially what a Davis reflector is, a bunch of aluminum plates at right angles to each other to help present a large-ish radar reflecting surface. I'm not sure I get your reference to welding together the half circles.

According to their website, the spheres are 6cm in diameter, the boat's 40 minutes away, so it's not easy for me to go measure for you.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 18:13:44

I have the same tri-lens radar reflector as David. It does not interfere with the genny at all. We have a CDI furler so no halyard issue either. That device is highly rated and Association members get a discount. Here is the link:

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/telltale/downwindmarine.asp"]Tri-lens[/url]

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2009 : 18:42:15

Now I want to do an experiment.

Get a carpload of road paint beads, paint a cube corner with clear shellac (or similar) and embed the beads in it.

The million dollar question is whether a coating of microscopic spheres placed inside a cube corner will act to give the same signature as your Lunenberg lenses, or better, or worse. In my head, the retroreflectivity of the beads will shoot the radar back to source, and the cube corner will send back some of whatever the beads missed.

The Luneberg reflector appears to actually refract the radar as it enters/exits the sphere, while a glass bead reflects light off the back of the bead. In both cases, the front half of the bead is doing very little, while the back half is bouncing the light back to source. It looks to me like the Luneberg needs the density of the front half of the sphere to aid in the refraction of the beam. Looks like you can get the lenses fairly reasonably, its just the housing and mount that provide a challenge.

I can get a radar emitter easily enough, its getting a reader that would be tricky. I don't think anyone on our lake has a radar onboard.

Edited by - on

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 18:47:31

Here is one I made about 20 years ago. I had one of our ships check its readability when it was in port. The ship radar guy said its signature was the size of a oversize river barge. It's made from four 12x12 aluminum container repair panels. The end size is 10 inches.

Storage configuration

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 06:35:44

Jerry,

I was thinking about making one using that basic design. Where do you hang it so it doesn't get caught on sails/halyards/etc.?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 10:59:23

The only modification I'd recommend to Jerry's reflector is rigging it in the "double catch rain" position instead of "catch rain". In double catch rain, the reflector is rigged to hang with corner apexes vertical so the panels form a triangular cup to "hold rain", instead of in catch rain where they hang vertically so only the flat panels "catch rain". I've seen it done two different ways, one with a rod bolted through the apex and a triangular bridle at the top & bottom to hold it in the right position.

Here's an article by US Sailing on the whys & wherefors: http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_3.htm

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 08:59:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Jerry,

I was thinking about making one using that basic design. Where do you hang it so it doesn't get caught on sails/halyards/etc.?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I recently rigged one by running the burgee halyard thru the core of the apple, so to speak. Sure, the dang thing spun all night, but didn't fail and didn't chafe rigging or sails. I'm sure there's a good reason why this was just a terrible idea. :)
Here's a much better way, courtesy of Bill Seifert:

Edited by - windsong on 07/21/2009 09:01:16

frog0911
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1349 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 20:59:44

Mike, I have hooks on the ends of my burgee halyard that clip into the holes. Almost like the drawing, minus the extra block. I have not had any problems with it doing any damage to sails or anything else. I wish I could say the same for my two boys, who ripped my jib on the fourth by trying to pull the jib across without releasing the set sheet first.

Edited by - frog0911 on 07/21/2009 21:01:04

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2009 : 08:24:59

AAhhhhhh, kids, they'll get you every time! I guess we just have to remember we were there at one time making the same mistakes.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2009 : 08:40:57

Jerry, ouch on the jib, but kudos for letting them make mistakes. If there's a better way for kids to learn, then I've never heard of it.
I thought the best idea Seifert had was the safety line in case the halyard breaks. The edges of those reflectors are pretty sharp. I wouldn't want one to fall on the crew below.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/22/2009 : 10:24:57

Wonder how it would work if you put some of that vinyl edge molding that goes on car doors around the edges of the reflector where it might chafe. Would it reduce the reflectivity enough to matter?

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.