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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Not all boats are created equal - Cynthia Woods II

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/17/2009 : 12:14:02

I'm not gonna say I told you so, but... http://tamus.edu/offices/communications/cynthiawoods/documents/Cynthia%20Woods%20Report-SIAD-OGC-FINAL.pdf

Mr. Stone did not have to die:

"We concluded in this report that the cause of the June 6, 2008 S/V Cynthia Woods accident was the result of an inadequate design and construction of the vessel’s hull and the keel-to-hull connection."

I'll take Tom Potter's almost acquisition over any of these modern underbuilt POS Bleach-bottle-esque cruiser/racers out there any day. Friends shouldn't let friends buy crappy boats. I hope the major builders are listening 'cuz the last time I checked they were slipping down the slippery slope.

sten
DPO - Zephyr - '82 C25 #3220, SR FK
SV Lysistrata - C&C 39 - St. Augustine for Hurricane Season

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 12:27:26

Sad.

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 13:01:48

It is amazing what some of these builders are doing. Interesting comparison to my brother's new boat. He just bought a AMF Sunbird that comes in just over 500 lbs. We cut an access port in the floor and the piece we removed was about a 1/2 inch plus thick with wood core.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 15:10:08

How about the keel falling off the J80 in this year's Doublehanded Farralones? It was a total structural failure of the bottom of the boat. A few minutes either way and the crew would have died in the cold, night, water. JBoats has issued some real crap about this.

Knock on wood but I can't imagine the keel falling off my fin keel C25 (rudder maybe).

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 16:45:39

You can bet the lawyers are lining up on this one. Interesting that the consultant - who was contracted by the University - cites that maintenance and previous groundings and inadequate repairs of the boat was not causal. An excerpt:

"In its report, the USCG concluded that the accident occurred as a result of improper operation and inadequate maintenance. The USCG identified operational deficiencies involving multiple groundings and improper storage of the vessel in the university’s marina in shallow waters. In addition, the USCG concluded that the vessel’s maintenance was inadequate because the potentially damaged vessel was not examined and surveyed by professionals,students made repairs to the vessel, and an unqualified employee determined the safety and integrity of the students’ repairs."

My guess is that it was both design and poor maintenance and repairs. In any case a needless tragedy. The photos of the ripped off area of the keel/hull joint are stunning.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 07/17/2009 16:47:18

bren737
Captain

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291 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 19:17:19

Ditto, Nauti. . . I thought the TAMU insistence on the poor design/construction as the cause versus the grounding/maintenance to be overtly 'covering their . . .'

While the light weight construction most certainly was a factor, I would imagine the grounding/maintenance was just as much so. We've all seen the results of weight-saving design in race boats; not pretty.

Chris Z: Wow. . . what memories! I had a Sunbird for several years. What a fun little boat; I really miss it. And well built! That's why I like the vintage stuff like my Passport. Rock solid!

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5378 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 20:42:22

This is a sad situation to hear about, it's inconceivable that designers and builders would take shortcuts and under-design newer boats. The risks are just too great to life and limb.

I have a '78 AMF Sunbird named Voyager and belong to a forum on it on Yahoo Groups. Several owners have actually complained about the thickness and the weight of the fibreglass.

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Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2009 : 21:21:22

I commmented to my brother when were both on the boat moving around about how stable she was with two adults. She sails well and with this type of boat, who cares about the weight.

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bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1778 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 07:37:29

Interesting report -- note that the boat's manufacturer's name is not mentioned although they do mention the company that performed some of the prior repairs

So many of the expensive racing boats built by the likes of "J", Melges, Summit, etc., are really designed to be almost disposable as they are focused on the cutting edge of racing, which progresses, limiting the boats aftermarket desirability as no one wants an uncomfortable "striped down" racer that is no longer competitive. My guess is that the structural design on many of those boats is minimal for the ongoing (year after year) demands of blue water work, and/or structural stress from more common groundings, etc.

As a father of a young sailor what is scary is that many clubs/sailing programs (at least here in CT) have "big boat" programs where the older kids race -- on an over night -- against each other. Boats are "loaned" by club members for these events and, the newer boats are rarely offered while the about to be retired boats are. Last year my son's boat was a ten year old J something (95/105?) that was soon after put on the market and sold so the owner could "upgrade" to the current model. My son, in his enthusiastic 16 year old way, said the boat "was fine, but creaky". I hope that none of the kids sailing the Cynthia Woods described her that way before the race. And this entire story has really provided some food for thought. Since this story first broke last year I have had a whole new appreciation for those keel bolts!

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 08:38:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 How about the keel falling off the J80 in this year's Doublehanded Farralones? It was a total structural failure of the bottom of the boat.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...or how about [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA-REPv-ReY"]this[/url]?

How'd you like to be the sewer-man on that boat? (You can see him--the last guy to jump off the bow.)

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/18/2009 : 09:30:21

I think the report was trying to show that the groundings did not cause the keel failure and the repairs did not cause the failure, the original design was such that the failure was inevitable. From one of the diagrams it indicated that a buildup of fiberglass for a moderate distance from the bolt holes and larger baking plates would have precluded failure. The fact that the baking plate sheared through the side and not the front also indicates that heeling forces and not grounding forces cause the failure and that the hull was too thin at the backing plate edge. It almost seems like the builder did not know of the existing requirements.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 06:25:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 I think the report was trying to show that the groundings did not cause the keel failure and the repairs did not cause the failure, the original design was such that the failure was inevitable. From one of the diagrams it indicated that a buildup of fiberglass for a moderate distance from the bolt holes and larger baking plates would have precluded failure. The fact that the baking plate sheared through the side and not the front also indicates that heeling forces and not grounding forces cause the failure and that the hull was too thin at the backing plate edge. It almost seems like the builder did not know of the existing requirements.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

crap in, crap out... Makes me wonder. This is not a game, although racing feels that way. Why builders continue to sacrifice structural integrity for speed boggles my mind. New Hunters, BendyToys and yes, sadly Catalinas are all making bigger and wider boats without improving the structural components. 30% keel to displacement ratios are not safe in my opinion.

sten

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 07:08:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 New Hunters, BendyToys and yes, sadly Catalinas are all making bigger and wider boats without improving the structural components. 30% keel to displacement ratios are not safe in my opinion.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The C-42 for example, as I read it, is 40%. (Others are indeed lower) I've certainly heard from all of those guys about improved grids, Kevlar laminates, etc.,... I'm certainly not qualified to judge structures, but I haven't heard of keels falling off any of the three like they do off Open 60s that are supposed to be able to handle the Roaring Forties.

As for ballast/displacement, sail-plan is a factor--how much sail is your ballast counteracting? Also, how low is the ballast relative to the COG? Recent wing keels, while shallow draft, put a large proportion of weight down in the wings. The long, full keels on older boats have more weight closer to the hull (in part for structural purposes), where it has less leverage.

That said, how many people buy a Hun/Ben/Cat to go over the horizon? Very few. Those who do can read the spec sheets and use the on-line calculators. (Stability ratios and capsize screens help tell the story.) If they don't know what the specs mean, they probably shouldn't be going off-shore on a sailboat.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/20/2009 : 07:22:02

Catalina is the only one advertising lead keels these days and I applaude that. Their bigger boats need the 40% becasue of apparent windage... You don't need the sails up to move. LOL! They do what they do, and Cyntia Woods was designed to race - once - and then park her.

sten

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windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 13:46:53

It suddenly hit me that this boat is a Cape Fear 38, donated to the school by Kent Mitchell, who owns Cape Fear Yacht Works. At the school's request, he was helping them establish a sailing program by building and donating the boats. I sailed with him this spring, and will be sailing with him again this fall. His laywers have their own version of where the blame should be placed. To back up their story they point to a Coast Guard report that I have not seen. I really have no insight into the matter, and he certainly never talked about it, but to be cynical a moment, it's hardly surprising that the school's investigation exonerated the school of any blame. Of course, blame doesn't help the victim, but it'll be mighty important to the widow and her laywers.
What a sad story... for everyone. Tragic.

Edited by - windsong on 07/21/2009 13:59:01

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 14:50:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 It suddenly hit me that this boat is a Cape Fear 38, donated to the school by Kent Mitchell, who owns Cape Fear Yacht Works. At the school's request, he was helping them establish a sailing program by building and donating the boats. I sailed with him this spring, and will be sailing with him again this fall. His laywers have their own version of where the blame should be placed. To back up their story they point to a Coast Guard report that I have not seen. I really have no insight into the matter, and he certainly never talked about it, but to be cynical a moment, it's hardly surprising that the school's investigation exonerated the school of any blame. Of course, blame doesn't help the victim, but it'll be mighty important to the widow and her laywers.
What a sad story... for everyone. Tragic.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I too thought it was interesting that the CG report and the school's findings were so different in the article I read. I would think that the CG would be the impartial authority...kind of like the FAA in a plane crash.

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Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 17:56:56

I am beginning to see the validity in the USCG report and the MSU report is now looking more suspect.

http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/425/245691

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 18:11:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 I am beginning to see the validity in the USCG report and the MSU report is now looking more suspect.

http://www.piersystem.com/go/doc/425/245691

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

just look at the photos of the keel and you will see that this incident was a result of crappy design and build. PERIOD. Run aground a few times, no big deal provided your grid et al are still in place. This boat had no grid, the keel just ripped away. There is more surface area on an old C25 than shown in the after photos. Sorry, real boats do run aground and that is not an excuse for the keel falling off.

sten

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Oscar
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2030 Posts

Response Posted - 07/21/2009 : 18:22:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">CG would be the impartial authority...kind of like the FAA in a plane crash.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wrong. The FAA is unpredictable, and inconsistent. The NTSB on the other hand is the one to read. Unfortunately the FAA doesn't always listen (read almost never) to the NTSB.

As far as this accident. There is no way I would build a boat with that little glass holding up a 5000 pound keel, and let it be used in a school environment. Even if it was Kevlar or Carbon. The 2 feet above and around that keel should have been a couple of inches at least and then fairing into the hull to disburse the loads. The way it was built it was not designed to take any damage or abuse, period.

Formula One construction in the hands of DIY maintenance and operation is a problem waiting to happen. Professional racers that KNOW what they are floating around in, and are willing to take the risk for an extra half a knot is one thing. Cruisers, Kids in school or charters need to be protected against themselves.

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