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Weeping Bolt on 1980 C25

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gruntus
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/28/2009 : 12:04:50

I have been lurking for a while and have found tons of information using the search button but I still need some help.

The Problem.
I recently purchased a 1980 C-25 SR/WK (see I have been reading posts). I have had water in the bilge that was there since I bought the boat. Yesterday during the never ending cleaning I decided to tackle the bilge that had some funky red / brown water in it. After cleaning the bilge I emptied it and dried it out. All but the aft most bolt appear to have a glob of caulk on the nuts. The one nut that has no caulk on it was weeping water into the bilge. Not fast mind you but the area would get a little damp and after about 45 min a thin line of water would start towards the bilge pump. All of the bolts are rusted but you can still see some thread on them.

When I got the boat I was told that water in the bilge was normal for a boat that sat in the water all of the time and to me that sounded logical, but after reading here I have found that a C25 should stay dry.

Questions for you guys.
1. Is this bad or BAD? (BAD = go sailing and you will die)
2. My boat is in Kemah, TX. Where could I take it to have it pulled
out of the water and how much does it cost? (ball park)
3. Is there a place that will let me do the work myself in the Kemah
area and if so what kind of money will I have to spend to keep it
on dry land?
I figure that if I have to pull it out of the water then I might as well go ahead and do work on the bottom since it's been about 5 years since it was last done.

Any help you guys can give would be great and I am headed to the marina after work to take some pictures of the weepy bolt and the water that has gathered in 24 hrs.

~ There is something to be learned from a rainstorm. When meeting with a sudden shower, you try not to get wet and run quickly along the road. But doing such things as passing under the eaves of houses, you still get wet. When you are resolved from the beginning, you will not be perplexed, though you still get the same soaking. This understanding extends to everything.~

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2009 : 13:42:30

You indicate it's an '80 and that it has a wing keel. Have you looked at the keel yet? I think the only way it could have a wing would be if the PO had installed one in place of the swing keel. In any case, no, it shouldn't be weeping around the keel bolt but I'll let others with more experience chime in about the fix.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2009 : 13:55:24

Michael,
I think to be on the conservative side I'd say it's closer to BAD, but who's to say? If it were me I'd have it hauled and have the bottom cleaned, especially around the keel close to the leaky bolt. There's going to be a crack there where keel and hull meet I think. The keel bolts will need to be tightened and or a new one installed, then the hull sealed. BUT, I've never had the problem (yet) personally, I'll bet someone who has will comment on this thread before long.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2009 : 16:21:08

The Catalina 25 bilge should be bone dry. Leaking around the bolts is not normal. My 78 has been in the water full time for over 30 years and is not leaking anything (although I have new, sistered, keel bolts). You've had the wing conversion. There's no telling how well it was done. Time to get her out of the water and take a look.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2009 : 18:15:28

Michael,

Where do you keep your boat? I'm at Watergate. South Texas Marine is located there. They charged me $170.00 to pull my boat for a survey a couple of years ago. For that price they pulled the boat, pressure washed the hull, and re-floated the boat. You get 30 minutes to take a look around.

I'm not sure what they charge to pull it and put it on stands. You cannot do your own work at this yard. I'm not sure if there are any places around Kemah that will let you do your own work.

Keep in mind there are numerous boat yards in this area so I would suggest you call as many as posssible, explain your situation, and see who gives you the best deal (if you find someone that will do it for less than $170.00 let me know as I've got to pull my boat and adjust the bunks on my trailer so I can get out of Dodge if we get another hurricane).

Did you buy the boat through a broker or from an individual? Did you have the boat surveyed? If it's determined to be a serious issue you may have some recourse if the seller mislead you on the condition of the boat.

Edited by - GaryB on 07/28/2009 18:21:51

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2009 : 18:30:52

I was looking at the photo in your signature and it appears to me that your boat was most likely a swing keel at one time. It appears in the pictures you have a keel "trunk" sticking up from the floor directly behind the mast support in the cabin. It should be approx 6 - 8" wide, maybe 4' long, and maybe 18" high.

Do you have a winch that you have to crank on when you go out to sail? It's located directly behind the steps leading down into the cabin? If not or if it appears there used to be one there, and you have bolts in the area under the wooden plate in the middle of the cabin floor (and based on the comments in your post above, you do) you should have a wing keel.

Edited by - GaryB on 07/28/2009 18:37:52

gruntus
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 07:41:51

The boat was purchased from an individual with no surveyed and is kept at marina Del Sol. I will call around and see how much the other places are that can pull the boat but hearing that it will cost around $170.00 does make me feel better. I have seem on the forum that my boat should not have a wing keel but the PO told be that it had one, guess I'll know for sure when I get it pulled.
When I went to check the boat there was so little water that I could not get it to show in a photo but it was there.

Here are the pictures.

[url=http://www.imagehosting.com/]

[/url]

I guess this is caulk to cover the bolts.
[url=http://www.imagehosting.com/]

[/url]

And this is the evil weeping bolt. You can see that it is damp around the edge.
[url=http://www.imagehosting.com/]

[/url]

Do these photos help any?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 08:05:24

I would see if I could borrow a trailer. Have it pulled, and then tow it home (if practical). I would replace those bolts, but I just saw a boat sink when it lost its keel, so I'm kinda nervous about that right now.

It took 3 minutes for an O'Day 32 to go from saililng beautifully to plumb gone. Bear that in mind if you leave your slip. Keep a handheld VHF in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 09:30:05

I would agree. Wing or full keel, there isn't much 'nut' left on the keel bolts. And given the amount of deterioration I would guess that it is a full keel, not a wing. The wing keel conversion isn’t old enough to see that kind of rust. And the keel will determine what trailer you load it on.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 09:42:56

It really looks almost exactly like my fin keel bilge. Those look like the old mild steel bolts into the cast iron fin keel. Actually, the bilge looks pretty good. My original bolts are much more rusted and the keel is much more dirty and rusty.

You need to see the boat out of the water. Look for the "Catalina Smile" which is a separation of the leading edge of the keel slightly from the hull.

If it is, indeed, a fin keel, the bolts can be sistered pretty easily (cost me $900 and was done in the water). I really doubt this boat has a wing keel. The wing is lead and the bolts would be stainless and much newer looking.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 09:58:50

I'm hardly an expert, but those bolts would probably have scared me off from a sale. We looked at about three dozen boats before buying SL, the bilge was usually about the third place I looked after the hull and deck. We didn't want any major projects, and sistering in keel bolts doesn't sound like much fun.

That said, I'd bow to more expert opinions on the C-25s from guys like Jim.

Let us know what you find when you get it out of the water. Hopefully it's not a huge project to effect any needed repairs.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 12:41:56

I agree with Jim. Those look just like the original bolts holding my cast iron fin keel. The issue is the boat has a wooden sole that the bolts pass through. If a bolt is weeping the sole is undoubtedly getting wet which can lead to rot. I added four additional 3/4" bolts to mine this past spring so it is a chore you can tackle yourself. My bolts were not seeping so I drilled my new holes while the boat was in the water. Since yours is leaking you may sink your boat if you try to drill new holes while in the water. If I was in your place I would pull the boat and sister some new bolts in place to secure the keel. Then I would find the crack where the water is leaking in, open it up a bit, and do an epoxy filler patch. That should take care of the leak and stabilize the keel. A boatyard will probably want to drop the keel and re-bed it with new bolts but that will cost you more then the boat is worth.

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
Captain

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USA
365 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 12:51:11

Is it possible that the water that is seeping in from the bolt is actually rainwater that had accumulated in the bilge and worked it’s way past the bolt and now that the bilge has been dried out its seeping back in?

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 12:54:04

I would tend to believe this is not a wing. Had the PO put a wing on the boat it now would have the stainless bolts, Or am I wrong ??? I hate to say this but if water is leaking in through the bolt then the seal between the hull and keel is compromised. It could have been caused by a grounding or a boatyard banging the keel around when blocking it up. The only way to tell is to haul it and look for the crack/separation. You may have to remove the bottom paint around the joint to expose the crack. $10 say you have a fin. Ed has a good point about the water seeping back in but that would be only a small amount and then stop. If you are getting an inch or two and keeps coming, Its coming from the outside.

Edited by - islander on 07/29/2009 12:59:33

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 13:08:17

I see Kemah is on the coast near Galveston so I assume you are in salt water. Let enough water accumulate so you can taste it. (Maybe soak it up in a sponge and squeeze some in your mouth.) If it's salt water you know you have a keel leak. If it's fresh you are in much better shape.

Edited by - on

gruntus
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 13:09:24

I am certain that it is the bolt because I can see it getting damp after it is dried off. As far as taking it home I would have no room for it and I am pretty sure the nieghbors would hate me. :) I guess I will be pulling the boat out to have a better look but wouldn't it need to dry out before I could do any work on it?

Oh and thanks for all the replies guys. I know from reading on here that I should have had the boat checked out but this is my 1st and I didn't find the site until after I got it. Live and learn. lol

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 13:18:53

Hey grunt, do you know what your draft is? If you have a fin keel its around 3'10 (many round it up to 4'). I think wing is around half of that. I can't imagine sailing around not knowing what your draft is.

I haven't done thesort of surgery you are facing, but if I was, I would want the boat to dry out first. Sealing moisture into the hull can't be a good thing. Are there bylaws against having a boat in the yard where you are? Many towns have a 1 boat per driveway bylaw, so you might be able to get away with taking th eboat home, even if you live in an urban area. Check first, or pay tickets and beg forgiveness. Also, measure the length of your driveway, and make sure you can get in/out.

If you are sure that dragging th eboat home is not an option, find out how much it would costt to take it to an RV storage place, or a farm to do the repair. Either of these may be a better deal than the marina.

For peace of mind the marina may give more skilled help, but you will pay for it.

Also, the day you have the boat pulled may be a good time to have a survey done, both in-water and out. God only knows what else is lurking for you to fix while the boat is on the hard. (Through-hulls? head? wiring?)

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 16:58:44

I wouldn't make any hasty moves here. Its a very slow leak. If it were my boat I would make sure the bilge pump is working and go enjoy the boat for the rest of the season. Keep an eye on it and deal with the problem in the fall when you would normally pull it. You have all winter to decide what to do, besides its probably hotter than blazes in TX right now. Go have some fun!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 18:29:25

If, indeed, the bolts pass through a wood sole support then I would be concerned about this. Sistering in a few more bolts wont fix a rotted section of wood. I would suggest you get a pro to look at this.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 19:50:43

Michael,

DO you have a trailer for your boat? If you do, there's a RV/Boat Storage yard just a couple of miles from Marina Del Sol. It's on Lawrence Rd just south of FM518. I think the rent is $50 - $60 per month.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Clear%20Lake%20Shores&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Edited by - GaryB on 07/29/2009 19:51:35

gruntus
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2009 : 20:40:58

Hey all I drank the bilge water and I should have had a shot of Patron and a slice of lime. Now that I think back on it is drinking bilge water a good idea???
The boat has been passed around like the town bike and there were a number of PO's, the one I met said that it's a wing keel but if around 4' is the draft for a regular keel thats what I have. I'm calling BM Boat Works in the morning and hope to meet him out at the boat in the afternoon. A friend of mine talked to him today and he said the he could do it for less than what the Catalina direct parts would cost, mind you that it would only include installing new bolts so there would still be the bottom to fix.

I do like the idea of keeping the boat at the RV storage park but then I would have to rent a trailer and find blocks to put the boat on. If any of you guys have ideas where I could find this I wold be eternally grateful and would gladly share a tasty cup of warm bilge water with you.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2009 : 08:04:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If, indeed, the bolts pass through a wood sole support then I would be concerned about this. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The sole is fabricated from a solid 1-3/4" thick piece of hard lumber. Much like a 2x4. The shavings I saw when I drilled it looked like teak but who knows. I only mention it because the water will probably do less and slower damage to a piece of hardwood then it would a laminated piece of plywood like the cockpit floors and deck are made of. Just another piece to the puzzle. If you can get someone to sister bolts for less then the price of the CD kit, I'd do it. There is a sizable quantity of labor involved.

Edited by - on

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