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bow pulpit

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Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 07/31/2009 : 14:12:39

I am the proud new owner of Moonpenny, hull 418, and a new member of the association and are just now getting a chance to acquaint myself with your forum - which is extremely helpful. This is the first boat I have owned and I am learning a lot. On the very positive side, I had a wonderful sail with the dolphins a week ago on the Delaware Bay - surrounded by about a dozen of them for about 10 minutes!
On the not so positive side, I have found docking in a canal with the tide running perpendicular to the boat slip is not easy. It is a difficult speed issue - need enough to maintain turning/direction but to much is hard to stop. Unfortunately, I learned the result of not stopping effectively is a bent bow pulpit.
Now for the need for advice:
I contacted catalina direct and can get a replacement bow pulpit, but the shipping will cost as much as the unit - does anyone have any thoughts on where / how to fix this? It is largely the front support post.
Second question - does anyone know if the screws that hold it down have nuts on them (vs. wood screws)? I took a cursory look and can't figure out how to get at them. I did read somewhere about cutting a hole in the side of the anchor locker and creating and inspection port - sounds a bit scary, but functional - also unnecessary if wood screws?
Last question - docking - any advice? (I am planning on trying to time my returns to high or low tide peaks to minimize the current effect).
Thanks in advance for your help.
Steve

Mango Brother
250 WK - #418

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 14:58:46

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your purchase. I've only seen pictures of Moonpenny but she looked like a well cared for boat. I suspect that the bow pulpit is secured with bolts and nuts, as well as a backing plate at each connection spot. Bow pulpits have to handle a lot of stress. I'm a lake sailor so I can't comment on tides and related docking issues. Just maintain the minimum speed necessary to steer the boat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 15:06:52

Regarding docking, do you have a finger dock on one side and a piling on the other, or two fingers? Does the current alternate on you (as I suspect when you refer to tide), or is it one way? Do you prefer bow-in or stern-in? (I'd probably suggest bow-in.)

A rule of thumb in a current is to approach the slip up-stream, even if that means passing the slip and turning around. Much has been written here about using a spring-line while docking--you can search on that term--I'll just summarize a few things I do...

I added a "dock wheel" (rotating fender on an axle) at the corner of my finger dock--very helpful for dealing with currents and wind. For a current pushing away from the finger dock, I have a spring-line to be picked up from the finger and dropped on a midship cleat on the way in, so it both stops the boat and pulls it into the finger dock. I can leave the engine in gear, pushing against the spring-line to hold the boat against the dock while I step off the boat to secure the bow. If the current will be pushing me into the finger, I can grab a spring-line from the piling opposite as I turn in (after approaching up-stream and entering at an up-stream angle), drop it on a midship cleat to help pull the boat off the finger, and turn the engine, using the spring-line as a fulcrum. Then when I shift to neutral, the boat settles against the finger.

It's like what they say about getting to Carnegie Hall...

Check with a local marine canvas shop about possibly repairing your rail--they work with stainless tubing all the time. Also, Catalina Yachts might be able to send one on a boat they're shipping...

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 07/31/2009 15:12:31

Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 16:44:56

David and Dave,
Thank you both for your replies.
Re the docking, what i am facing is in essence two fingers that are actually 6 pilings (3 on each side) - the width between the pilings is 12' (vs. boat width of 8.5). Side to side is the current issue, not front to back. I like the idea of a spring line - i am going to have to figure out how to get it to the right length depending on tide height (change in tide is 4 to 5'). This may sound crazy, but i am thinking about tying a line connecting the mid pilings that will 'catch' the bow as i enter - even thinking of a fanoodle in the middle of it to act as a cushion and keep the line floating.
you are right about going in against the current - I always do this. Good advice re a local shop - i have started a conversation with a canvas shop.
Thanks, Steve

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 17:59:39

Welcome to the forum Steve! Sorry about the pulpit. Dave's advice is solid and I bet David Elliot will chime in soon as he has a challenging docking situation too and has good advice.

As far as rigging a floating line to catch the bow - hey if it works do it! I would add a snubber at each end of the line to handle the stress load on the line. I use a spring line to dock and I have a snubber on it too. Here is a link describing it:

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15645&SearchTerms=dock"]Dock-A-Matic[/url]

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/31/2009 : 18:51:53

Congratulations on buying a great boat Steve. Welcome to the forum.

Make Randy's Dock-A-Matic, you won't regret it. I keep mine on the boat and lasso a piling as I enter the slip. It's secured to a cleat that is on the jib track. Others, as Dave suggested, leave it on the dock and pick it up and put it on a midship cleat as you go by. I think that's too easy to miss particularly if you're concerned about current, wind direction and other people watching. Once you perfect the Dock-A-Matic technique, and that will happen quickly, your dockmates will think you're the docking expert in the marina.

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Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/01/2009 : 06:13:13

John and Randy,
thanks for the ideas - i will definately make two dock-o-matic spring lines (one for each side as current can push me from one side to the other in what feels like a nano second)and give it a shot. i like the idea of already being connected to the boat and only having to hook one of two pilings and the spring is a great idea re absorption. Let me know where to send the royalty check! I now have my project for this week and will be testing next weekend.
Thanks again!
Steve

Edited by - on

superbob
Navigator

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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2009 : 11:50:49

Steve - looks like we're family. Sparkle Plenty, hull 421, is ours. Good luck coming and going. . .. :) Oh yeah, and sailing, too.

Bob
Redding CA

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2009 : 13:01:42

Steve... Does your main dock float, and do you have cleats on it? With that much tide range, one general principle is to make your dock-line runs from pilings or fixed docks as long as possible--for example, your stern lines should cross to the opposite sides of the boat, and your forward spring-lines can go from the outside pilings to the bow cleats. The objective is to reduce the amount the angles change with the tide, so the lengths don't vary as much. Separately from this, you can have a "dock-o-matic" or shorter spring-line for entering the slip--it's easier to work from a midship cleat or winch for that purpose, rather than at the bow. After you're in and secured, you can remove the short line (to minimize tide problems).

Most marinas allow some sort of hooks to be attached to pilings, to hold lines for easy access entering and leaving. That might be more convenient than floating lines.

Capturing the bow between two crossing lines is a good idea, except it seems your tide range would make that problematic. (You don't want to be capturing your bow rail or sliding right over the line.)

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Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/01/2009 : 14:43:39

Bob, thanks for the welcome - good to be here!
Dave,
Believe it or not, the dock is fixed - i end up clibing up onto the boat or down to it depending on tide. no cleats on the dock, everything is tied to the pilings.
Once in the slip, the boat sets fairly well. The lines i fix to the back boat cleats run thru shackles on the rear pilings and have weights tied to them, thus they will adjust with the tide. I use a fixed spring line to a mid ship cleats to keep it from moving to far forward and the front lines are fixed and keep it moving to far back. All and all, once inside the slip the set up is pretty good. Appreciate your thoughts on the cross tying - i will try it.
You are right about the tide range making the crossing lines problematic. I don't yet have it all figured out but am thinking of 2 positions, one for high tide and one for low tide and manually setting it up each time i depart - at this point, i am day sailing and have a pretty good idea when i will return. I kind of look at this as extra insurance - haven't tried it yet so not sure exactly how it will work out. I bought most of what i need for the dock-o-matic today and plan on using it also.
thanks again for all the thoughts
steve

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/01/2009 : 15:42:07

From what I've read by others, the dock-o-matic idea is a very good one. Also, with 3 pilings on each side, and assuming no walkway, you might consider tying a strong line, say 7/16" or 1/2", between the end pilings on each side, and put a hook on the middle piling that the line can rest on. When you come into the slip, your crew can pick up the line with a boat hook and hold it to keep you from drifting into the pilings on the other side.

Edited by - on

Mango Brother
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2009 : 05:56:43

Good idea, thanks David,
Steve

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2009 : 08:34:33

Steve,
Welcome to the forum and to the world of docking a boat that's exposed to many things that want to keep you from success.

It sounds like you've already got mid-ship's cleats setup for springlines, but if not, I recommend a pair of Garhauer track mounted cleats mounted on your tracks behind your jib sheet blocks. They make a big-big difference in boat handling when you're tying up.

I also highly recommend Randy's Dock-O-Matic, here's a link to [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19741&SearchTerms=bowline"]our latest incarnation[/url]. We like it because it's easy to get a boat hook through while still keeping the loop wide open to grab a cleat.

The distance you want for your spring line is 8.5 feet plus or minus half a foot or so. Now that's for our floating dock, you might have to adjust for your fixed dock, or possibly have two loops on the boat end for your tidal range, but the idea is to have a cleat on your dock that you can hook in all cases with your Dock-O-Matic such that you don't do things like bend your pulpit or change the color of your bow to that of your dock box (guilty).

Docking in a cross current is a major pain, but it sounds like you at least don't have someone else's boat to bounce off of like we do if you miss. We bought some over sized fenders, six of them and hang three over each side to minimize any damage we might cause ourselves or neighbors. So far we've never hit anyone, but we've had some rear misses that were only checked with boat poles.

Speaking of boat poles, we found an aluminum & fiberglass pole in our local Home Depot that's extensible to 18' which is far more than you need, and way too floppy at that extension to be useful, but we can extend it out to around 10-12 feet if we want to give Rita more reach to the dock to hook the cleat. It was originally designed as a painter's pole, but it's worked out really well as a boat pole. It makes it easier to scrub our hull as well.

I'm with you on timing your arrivals, I try to hit on an incoming tide, or at slack. Outgoing tides are um...problematic. Up until extremely recently we had an upstream slip, just this past week we were finally given a downstream slip, so now we can just sort of ooze into our slip with the river current pushing us down onto the finger, instead into our neighbors like it's been for the past 2-1/2 years. Woohoo!

The dock wheel Dave suggested is also a very good idea, it keeps you from dinging up the side of your boat, although in your case with the tidal range, I'm not sure how you'd rig it. Since I'm now on the opposite side of the finger piers at our marina, my custom built hardware will have to be modified or another one built (helps to have a blacksmith for a friend) to mount it. Currently I just have a right angled cushion that the marina provides.

I don't have any advice for your pulpit, hopefully you'll find a good solution. If you don't, let me know, the guy in the slip next to me just had his rebuilt from scratch, it wasn't a Catalina, but he might have some advice and I can talk to him about it next time I see him.

Another thing you should definitely consider is to rig a hard or soft link to your rudder & engine. Search for "hard link" or "soft link" on the forum and you'll find posts from both camps. You'll quickly find links to Arlyn's softlinks, and his pages on all the various mods he's made to his boat, reading through his pages is definitely worth an afternoon's time. There are a number of other guys on here who have done similar work, but Arlyn seems to have blazed the trail.

They hard/soft link makes maneuvering in tight places SO much easier, especially at low speed simply because you have your prop pushing you in the direction you want to go (well, not really, but you know what I mean). If Moonpenny doesn't already have this setup, I can't recommend it enough. The 250 has such a high freeboard and flat bottom, that's it's just too easy to push around by wind, current, tidal flow, etc. Anything you can do to give you more control is well worth the effort.

Edited by - on

Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/02/2009 : 17:07:06

David,
thanks for all the insights. I do not have a hard or soft link and can definately see how that can help. i do recall seeing some when I was boat shopping, but didn't connect the dots - I will look into it.
You mentioned boats nearby - I didn't say this earlier, but I am between two motor boats, one of which has a monster outboard whose prop is out of the water and appears to be salivating when I approach. This of course is another challenge. This is what keeps me from leisurely approaching the slip - I can't envision a scenario where I can grab the entering piling and pivot in as it would be likely that I would bounce off my neighbors boat.
I have also started a campaign for a more user friendly slip next year. Unfortunately, they are in tight supply in my area.
Thanks again for your ideas,
steve

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2009 : 18:04:59

Steve,
If you're in a tight maneuvering situation, I'd recommend Arlyn's softlink as a quick remedy, it's easy and can be done created in a short amount of time and generally requires no modification to your engine, boat, or rudder, although you'll probably have to put longer bolts into your rudder assembly to make the extension arm attachment. After you have it installed, you can evaluate whether it's worth your time to build a hardlink, which will take you the better part of a weekend to build, but you have more positive control.

My Tohatsu sticks almost straight out, and I'll bet some of my neighbors view it the same way you do your neighbor's.

As far as campaigning, I know exactly what you mean there as well. We started bugging our marina manager about two weeks after we got into the marina & realized what we'd gotten ourselves into.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/02/2009 : 19:22:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 As far as campaigning, I know exactly what you mean there as well. We started bugging our marina manager about two weeks after we got into the marina & realized what we'd gotten ourselves into.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Most of us start at the bottom...

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dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/03/2009 : 10:19:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Mango Brother
 You mentioned boats nearby - I didn't say this earlier, but I am between two motor boats, one of which has a monster outboard whose prop is out of the water and appears to be salivating when I approach. This of course is another challenge. This is what keeps me from leisurely approaching the slip...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 My Tohatsu sticks almost straight out, and I'll bet some of my neighbors view it the same way you do your neighbor's.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

At my marina, those who leave their outboards sticking straight out into our rather tight fairways are asking, make that begging, for trouble. Personally, I wouldn't leave my outboard sticking straight out so much as a curtesy to other boats but rather to lessen the chance of someone taking out my outboard/mount/transom from a less than perfect docking manuever caused by inattention, inexperience, the wind, or the dark of night. Just a couple of weeks ago, I got to my boat to find my outboard, which is stowed straight up and down, and always centered, turned sideways from either someone hitting it or fending off of it.

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superbob
Navigator

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USA
200 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 12:16:01

I found the following on US Sailing educational link. This may help to understand when you think you're turning port but the boat is headed starboard. This information underscores the need for a hard link between the OB and the rudder OR, forgetting wheel steering when in tight quarters and use the OB handle to maneuver.

"Docking Larger sailboats are harder to dock than smaller ones. In fact, docking a large boat can be harder than sailing one. Large boats have inertia and they do not stop easily. Your controls are as follows:

Forward (transmission set in forward) with the ability to have the bow move to the starboard, port, and go straight.

Slow forward (transmission set in reverse) with the stern moving towards port (right-handed prop) or starboard (left-handed prop).

Notice, nothing was said about going in reverse. Reverse practically does not exist when docking a large boat. You only slow down and in the process you will experience prop-walk which will swing the stern (back) of your boat in one direction or the other, depending upon the rotation of the propeller.

Prop-Walk: The propeller not only moves water forward and aft (backward) but also to the side. The side motion of the water will swing the boat's stern in one direction or the other depending upon the rotation of the propeller. Prop-Walk is much more pronounced in reverse than forward directions.

In a right-handed prop, the propeller will rotate clockwise when the transmission is in forward and the boat will turn to port more efficiently than starboard. In reverse, the stern will swing to port.

In a left-handed prop, the propeller will rotate counter clockwise when the transmission is in forward and the boat will turn to starboard more efficiently than port. In reverse, the stern will swing to starboard."

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 16:41:08

Steve,
Welcome! Where do you keep Moonpenny? I have a slip at the Rehoboth Bay Marina (Collins Street in Dewey Beach). I am one of two Catalina 250 owners on our pier. Always glad to share tips. Definately follow the link on the links page to Arlyns Website. Stop on down and you can check out how our boats are set up and go for a sail! During the week I am there most afternoons and on the weekends, I get there in the morning. Sailed to Cape May a couple of weeks ago, got a slip for the night, hit the Lobster House, and sailed back the next morning. The guys on our pier are working on possibly heading to Ocean City, Maryland and possibly Chincoteague!
Willy (Bill)
C-Dock RBM

Edited by - on

Mango Brother
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 18:01:22

Willy,
Great to meet you - I keep Moonpenny in Lewes on the canal - access via pilottown rd. I will definately swing by when i am nearby and try to catch you. do you sail the ocean or rehoboth bay? I thought the bay was to shallow. Trip to cape may sounds great - i have thought about it and would like to do it sometime. how long did it take to sail accross?
steve

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Mango Brother
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 08/04/2009 : 18:04:24

Bob,
Thanks for the education re "reverse" and your thoughts re linking - i will definately have to try it.
Steve

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willy
Captain

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USA
422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 15:25:55

Know where you are... I always admire the Alerion out there on my way by!
Rehoboth Bay is mostly between 5 & 7', but gets a bit hairy around the edges. I am centerboard WB with a kick-up rudder so I can pretty much manage through the skinny water OK.
We like to "circumnavigate"... Go out through Lewes after going through the canal, and then sailing down the beach to the Indian River Inlet. The dolphins really do make it! The problem is getting the bridges open on the canal...they require a 24 hour advanced notice. Let me know if you ever need the phone number to schedule, the one on the bridge itself is wrong!
It took about 5 1/2 hours...(not much wind that day) to make the crossing to Cape May. I think its about 17 miles from Lewes to the Cape May canal, then another mile and a half into town.
The wife and I really like Agave in Lewes...been there?
Willy

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GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4303 Posts

Response Posted - 08/05/2009 : 19:42:54

When I first got my boat I was docked with a fixed finger on one side and pilings on the other side. After slipping between the pilings while docking a couple of times on windy days I got a long piece of 1/2" line and tied it from the front piling to the middle piling and on to the rear piling. I tied it so it was about midway between the high and low tide ranges. This prevented me from going between the pilings and when the wind was blowing me away from the pilings I could grab the line anywhere along it's length to keep from being blown into my finger pier.

If you have pilings on both sides you could try this. This allows you to run forward if things start getting out of control and grab the line and walk your boat into the slip while holding it off the other pilings or boats .

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willy
Captain

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Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 18:44:37

Steve,
Motor sailed past Moonpenny this morning on the way out Roosevelt inlet to sail along the beach down to Indian River Inlet!
Lots of Dolphins and girls in Bikinis!!!!!!!!!
Willy

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willy
Captain

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422 Posts

Response Posted - 08/07/2009 : 18:47:40

Steve,
Google TIDEMINDERS. I use them and love them
Willy

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Mango Brother
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 08/14/2009 : 11:03:59

Gary,
Thanks for the tip - i actually did that exact thing last weekend for the reasons you described - glad to hear it helped out!
Willie,
I will be sailing quite a bit the week of aug 23 - will try to look you up.
Have been to Agave once - very good - looking forward to the next time. our favorite resturant changed ownership over the winter - it was fusion in rehoboth. still looking for a new favorite and so far, fins is on the top of the list.
i will check out tideminders, thanks
Randy,
Made the dock-o-matic and used it last weekend - worked like a charm with my daughter as deckhand. i also put the line in to 'catch' the bow - no luck with this as it immediately goes under the boat. i beleive it will 'catch' the keel, but do not think that is a good idea as i cant see what is happening and don't want to cause damage. i restricted my reentry time to slack tide and it made it a lot easier to dock and also was able to go slower which is a big help. i think the bottom line is reentry at slack tide is a must and hopefully i will find a more docking friendly location next year.
thanks
steve
For all
steve

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