Association Forum

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Fin Keel

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

A Devries
Deckhand

Member Avatar

21 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/20/2002 : 22:27:19

Our 1982 fin keel is out of the water <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>. This is our first sail boat and the end of our first season of sailing. I think I'm hooked for the rest of my life.
We kept our boat in Port Stanley on Lake Erie. As the season progressed I think the water dropped 18" making navigating the creek tricky. Making a long story short the bottom isn't all mud and we hit a rock several times. I feel I need to point out it was on the edge of the 8'wide channel we where left with. We saw several other boats hit it as well we didn't want to be left out.
The bilge is still perfectly dry but I can see day light at the leading edge where the cast joins the fibreglass and the crack extends back about 18". How do I fix this? I've got all winter and the boat is indoors.
Albert

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 14:12:15

I suspect nobody has tackled this question yet because there is something unclear about it. You appear to be saying that the crack, through which you can see daylight, runs along the joint between the hull and keel. Is that correct? If so, that is well below the waterline. You say the bilge is still perfectly dry. Do you have any idea how the bilge could have stayed dry when there was an open crack below the water line? Because of these seeming inconsistencies, I suspect I am misunderstanding something about the location of the crack. Can you clarify?

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 14:30:07

Here's my take... I suspect Albert is seeing daylight by looking parallel to the waterline across the forward edge of the keel/hull joint, which suggests that the keel has parted slightly from the hull without breaking the seal at the bolts or breaking through the stub/hull. This would be consistent with striking an underwater object.

That said, I don't think we can diagnose this sufficiently to recommend the correct repair without seeing it. The keel bolts are still an issue, especially on the older cast iron keel with its mild steel bolts. So too is the stub to which the keel is bolted, including the aft area where the keel would have pushed up on the stub during impact (which it probably did if it created a smile on the forward end of the joint). I'd have a good hull repair guy take a look. The repair could vary from some fairing compound, to some 5200 followed by torquing down the nuts on the keel bolts, to loosening the keel in order to repair the stub and then re-fairing the keel to the hull... This could even become worthy of an insurance claim, but probably isn't.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

A Devries
Deckhand

Members Avatar

21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 16:25:56

Dave you are correct.
I was thinking of lowering the keel on the bolts which should give me about an inch space between the keel and the hull. I would then fill that space with epoxy mixed with fibreglass strands, tighten up the bolts squishing out the extra filler, sand and fair.
Then we hit the rock we where moving very slowly I don't think the studs could of been damaged but I will take a closer look at them.
Albert

Edited by - on

A Devries
Deckhand

Members Avatar

21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 16:26:20

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 18:59:30

I agree with everything Dave said, but before doing anything, I think I would suggest you call Catalina and discuss it with them. Nobody knows better than them how that connection is made and sealed. When the boat is heeled, the stress on that connection is enormous, and it has to be right. You should discuss with Catalina all the issues that Dave mentioned. Based on what they tell you, you will probably know whether you can do the job yourself, or whether you should have it done professionally.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

Members Avatar

77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2002 : 21:35:08

Sounds like a "Catalina Smile..." This phenomenon normally effects the larger boats (30' and greater), and results from a failure of the seal between the hull and the forward portion of the keel. If you take a look at catalinaowners.com, you can do a search and find out more. The repairs seem fairly straight forward, although some folks have had recurring trouble. If the damage is structural and the result of an underwater collision, you are probably in good shape if the bilge is dry. Definitely recommend a call to the good folks at Catalina. They will undoubtably point you in the right direction. Let us know what you come up with for a solution.

Best of Luck,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

A Devries
Deckhand

Members Avatar

21 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2002 : 20:55:04

I called Catalina today. It seems what I have is a Catalina smile. It can be caused by two things. Being on the hard with too much weight on the back of the keel or hitting the keel on something underwater. They will Fax me the repair procedure which I understand involves grinding and filling. A darn site better than reseating the entire keel.
Thanks to all who responded. I now have a long winter to putter about the boat which will be ready just in time for spring.
Albert

Edited by - on

seashot
1st Mate

Members Avatar

27 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2002 : 12:56:38

Guys, just a thought, Sorry if it damages anyones good mood.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Assuming the Catalina smile is from the forward impact, and there is a gap between the keel to hull mating surface of say, 1/8" then something had to move. If the keel bolts and surrounding fiberglass (inside the boat) are free from cracks, then the keel bolts did not move. If the bolts did not move, then the studs in the keel must have slipped out somewhat. Once started, this movement would only continue. Tighten the bolts, close the gap. Next year, tighten the bolts, close the gap. And the next year, and the next year, and so one. Soon the bolts are so far extracted, the keel falls off. That would be bad, very bad. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> I am only suggesting this because I have seen a Cat in our marina that comes out every fall with a smile, and goes in every spring without a smile, but with a new fairing job and bottom paint. I would guess the owner is drawing the bolts down every winter to close the gap. Besides, why do some 20 year old boats have no smile while newer ones might have a big one?
Fred

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2002 : 14:28:28

Fred: You could very well have something there... The question is, how are the bolts installed? Lead keels generally have the bolt heads molded in so they can't pull out. What did Catalina do in the cast iron?

It could be that the smile disappears on the boat you've seen after the boat has been sitting with the keel supporting most of the weight for a while. A fresh coat of bottom paint could cover the smile, once it's been "closed" that way. Then, back in the water, the keel is hanging unsupported, and the smile reappears.

Torquing the keel bolts may be part of the answer, but if improper support on the hard, or contact with an underwater object, has caused some deformation in the stub (without necessarily cracking it), the smile may be recurring.

Another possibility is that the bottom of the stub is just not rigid enough to prevent a small amount of sagging around the bolts, so that eventually it's no longer precisely flat. We are, after all, talking about 1900# held up by a few little washers... I think I'd put my money on that theory--if I had some. (Winter storage fees, you know...) <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> My keel is fiberglass-encased lead, so to date, there's no smile. (Hear me knocking on wood?)

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 10/23/2002 14:29:33

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

Members Avatar

77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2002 : 22:59:02

Just like to point out that swing keels have 0% possibility of developing a "Catalina Smile..." Sorry, couldn't resist...

Cheers,

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2002 : 18:23:00

Just like to point out that fin keels have 0% possibility of developing a "Broken Keel Cable and SINKING..." Sorry, couldn't resist...

Cheers,

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2002 : 21:58:38

Mike and Don--GO TO YOUR ROOMS!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2002 : 01:13:43

But...But, he started it! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - on

Mike Vaccaro
1st Mate

Members Avatar

77 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2002 : 08:24:54

Sorry Dad.

Mike Vaccaro on the "Swoose"
84 TR/SK #4707

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2002 : 08:38:54

<font color=blue>Just like to point out that swing keels have 0% possibility of developing a "Catalina Smile..." Sorry, couldn't resist...</font id=blue>

Ugh, can't believe I'm doing this, but it is all in the family . . ..

That must be the only advantage of the swing keel

Ugh, how terrible can I be!

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.