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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

C250 Keel or Water Ballast?

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Ron_Bick
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/23/2009 : 13:51:30

I'm looking at some used 250s and have been favoring keel boats, but I found a very nice water ballast boat. I have been told by a broker that the WB sails faster. I was favoring the wing keel version for more stability. I'm just looking for a daysailer with at few weekend trips. However I sail on a body of water that is large and pretty shallow (8 - 12'). So when the wind picks up so does the chop and waves.
I'm looking for some advice from those who have sailed the water ballast - how does it sail in rough conditions?
Thanks,

Ron B

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/23/2009 : 17:52:33

Ron, I would want to know what makes this WB C250 very nice? I have had a WB for 8 years but because of an IDA rudder and a second reef put in the main sail and the correct sail trim I am at ease in 10-15 knot winds. So if you have three foot waves and 8' of water I would be very concerned with either C 250. Others will chime in on there opinions.JMTCW

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Ron_Bick
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 12:48:31

What makes the C250 nice...well I'm looking at price, condition, and equipment aboard. To be honest, I have not sailed either the WB or keel version 250. That's the reason for my posting. I have sailed C25s and I owned a C30 for 2 years. I was making the assumption that the C250 was going to sail as well as the C25 or C30. I know I had trouble catching a C250 with my MAcGregor 25, which I thought sailed very well in light and moderate air.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 13:02:44

Ron, I can't speak to the speed difference between the WB and WK 250's. We have a 250 WK and love it. While it does sit higher on the trailer and is heavier to tow, there is an additional 9" of headroom in the cabin and the aft berth is more usable. Also, when the WB board is down I would guess that it draws more depth than the wing. Of course when you pull the board up you can go into shallower water than a wing. The C250 is an excellent light and medium wind boat. When the wind gets to 12+MPH we put a reef in the main and furl in the 135 genny a bit to keep her on her feet. Reefed and furled we have been out in 20+MPH and did fine. We have had no problem in chop.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 14:07:03

The standard genoa for the 250WK is 135% versus 110% for the water ballast. Also the PRHF (racing association) handicap reflects the opinion that the water ballast is slightly slower. If you are going to trailer it then the water ballast would be my choice without a doubt. If you plan to keep it in the water then why put up with the tenderness (tendency to heel in a wind) and reduced cabin headroom of the water ballast model ?

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 14:17:04

My standard headsail was a 110%. I now have a 135%

I've never been on a WB version but, I echo what Randy said about the wing. I think the head room would clinch it for me and I'm not very tall. Also, the absence of the centerboard is one less bit of maintenance to worry about.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 18:43:12

We looked at both before buying our WK. We wanted a boat with standing headroom, we got that for Rita, I still have to stoop a bit unless the hatch is propped open, but it's far better than our San Juan 21 where I couldn't even kneel. As others have pointed out the WK sits higher on the trailer and is heavier to tow. The trade off is more headroom and more of a righting moment with the keel, although I think the righting moment of the WB is appreciable once you begin to heel and the water in the tank is above the waterline.

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sailorman
1st Mate

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USA
69 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 20:33:33

I have been off the site for a while,which I will explain. My two cents on a water ballast 250. Having owned a Columbia Defender (8000k with a full keel) and a 17 foot Siren (swing keel),IMHO the 250wb is as stable as the Columbia. I have been out in 20 knots + winds and with the sails reefed the boat is very stable and fast. The WK sailors are right in that there is less head room but there is also less freeboard. Lastly, the reason I was off the site for well over two years is that I was trying to sell the boat,my wife wanted standing head room. Listed with a local broker and on Yacht World in 2 years I recieved 2 offers, both looking to steal the boat. I have since changed my mind and fell in love with boat all over again as has my wife. I think most people are afraid of a water ballast. Resale used boats is bad, but on a water ballast ,it is really bad.

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MartinJW
Navigator

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USA
241 Posts

Response Posted - 08/24/2009 : 20:54:39

We looked at both boats before buying our WK. We also spent some time chatting with a very knowledgeable dealer in central California who has sold something like 100(!) C-250s - both WB and WK models. Our local dealer - who eventually sold us our boat - also preferred the WK over the WB.

What sold us on the WK was:

(1) more headroom; 11" if I recall correctly. (This feels like a LOT more headroom in a small boat.)

(2) no underwater rigging or mechanisms to worry about

(3) no valves and plumbing associated with the water ballast system

(4) We leave our boat in the water all summer; we only launch / retrieve our boat once a year. Even though the WB is probably easier to tow, launch, and retrieve, we were more interested in on-the-water convenience, comfort, and safety - the WK won on all these counts.

(5) As sailorman pointed out, resale can be worse on the WB models. I'm not sure that this is warranted, but people do seem to be more worried about all the extra complexity of the WB - especially when buying something used with a relatively unknown service history. We found used WB boats to be less expensive than WK boats (but we eventually bought a brand new boat).

(6) Our previous two boats (a 1991 Capri 16 and a 2007 Capri 18) both had the Catalina wing keel, and we were very, very happy with how these boats sailed. I'm not sure we were 100% correct in this assumption, but we figured that the WK on the 250 would probably have similar sailing characteristics.

(7) We sail on Lake Tahoe, which has an average depth of something like 1200 ft. The vast majority of the time we aren't concerned with water depth, so we didn't care about being able to pull the (swing) keel up to reduce the draw. (What is the difference in the draft of the two boats?)

I hope this is helpful,
Martin

Edited by - MartinJW on 08/24/2009 21:06:55

KD4AO
Navigator

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USA
202 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2009 : 05:46:27

Ron, the C250 WK is perfect for Charlotte Harbor. You will see several around from time to time. Mine is a 2003 and is a great little boat, handling well any conditions that come up in the Harbor waters. I would invite you for a sail but I am currently having a problem with the Honda Outboard and my wifes health problems are keeping me to busy to deal with it now. I could wind up selling if things don't change for the better. Hope not but priorities must prevail. Anyway I think the C250 WK is a great choice. I did a lot of research when I bought mine, traveling up to Tampa and St. Pete to look at new and used. Not very many for sale and clean is hard to find. Good Luck and enjoy looking.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 08/25/2009 : 07:53:36

Arlyn Stewart is probably our most experience WB owner--he's a Texan, but has sailed extensively on the Great Lakes, making some long passages. Since he hasn't weighed in, I'll report that he has previously offered the opinion that the WB "hobby-horses" less in chop due to the mass of the ballast being spread more from fore to aft. I think he's also suggested that the "initial stability" (resistance to light heeling) is lower than the WK, but that once the WB model reaches a certain heel angle, it's stability is about equal. (Waterline has nothing to do with it, BTW.)

I looked at both before buying a C-25 (partly a budget issue), but if I'd gone for a C-250, because mine would have lived in a slip and been stored in a boatyard, it definitely would have been a WK. If I'd wanted to tow her to some destinations, I would've had to think about it a lot harder--especially the tow vehicle requirements.

Funny story (sorta): I stepped on board an in-water C-250 at a boat show, and it literally wallowed under my feet. I commented to the sailsman... He said it would've been better if he'd filled the ballast tank all the way--he had started to fill it and then decided not to, so it was maybe 1/3 full. I told him it was a good decision if he didn't want to sell any boats. Lesson: Never partially fill your ballast tank! It's like a swamped dinghy--the water goes to the low side!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 08/26/2009 05:45:41

bill bosworth
Navigator

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USA
172 Posts

Response Posted - 08/26/2009 : 19:40:46

Ron;
We've had a c250wb for about nine years. We have had a series of fixed keel boats before this purchase. We decided to buy the wb when we moved to a large lake in North Carolina. We keep the boat at our dock for about 8 or 9 months a year. We are able to easily haul the boat back home during the winter. The lake contains many shoal spots and great beaches. We are able to raise the keel when the water gets skinney or when we would like to pull up to a beach. The boat sails very well, quite fast in comparison with many of the other boats on the lake especially in lite to moderate wind conditions. Having a center board also allows you to raise or lower it to effect the ballance (helm) of the boat. We don't find the boat to be overly tender as compared to our other fixed keel boats, infact my wife loves the boat and has great confidence in it in all conditions. We only overnight on the boat ocassionally and find it very adequate with the pop top raised and the doger installed. If we were to go out and buy a new boat tomorrow, it would probably be a c250 wb.
Good luck with your decision
Bill c250wb #134 Serendipity
Kerr lake, North Carolina

Edited by - on

Ron_Bick
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2009 : 07:57:44

To all who replied to my posting...Thanks so much for your insite, advice and sharing your boat experiences. At this point I am feeling confident with either a WK or WB 250. It is great to have a forum like this to be able to get friendly and knowledgable advice like I have received.
<b>A big thanks to all</b>!
I will post my decision when I buy the boat.

Edited by - on

Ron_Bick
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2009 : 17:19:47

AT LAST! I found a boat that I purchased last week. It is a 1995 250 WB that is absolutely pristine. It has been used for no more than one year and has spent the rest of her life under a tarp, on the trailer. The interior is excellent and the sails are as crisp as when new. I bouht it Arkansas and trailered it 1,100 miles here to FL. It just needs a coat of wax, some electronics and we are going sailing again. Thanks to all that gave me leads and offered boats their for sale. I found this one on the Catalina Owner's site.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2009 : 19:23:53

Congratulations Ron! You're gonna love your 250!!

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