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pastmember
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Initially Posted - 08/28/2009 : 09:17:33

UTRECHT, Netherlands — A Dutch court ordered authorities to take temporary guardianship of 13-year-old girl on Friday, delaying her plan to sail solo around the world until psychologists can assess her capacity to undertake the risky voyage.

Judges said Laura Dekker would face both mental and physical risks if she were allowed to go ahead with the two-year trip in her 26-foot boat named Guppy.

The court said she could continue living with her father, but would become the responsibility of Dutch child care officials for two months while an independent child psychologist evaluated her case.

The court battle in this traditional seafaring nation attracted has attention around the world, raising questions about parental responsibility when children want to set off on perilous adventures.

Laura was out sailing Friday and did not attend the District Court hearing. Her father, Dick Dekker, was in court to hear the decision from the three judges. He made no immediate comment.

Richard Bakker, spokesman for the Council for Child Protection, welcomed the ruling.

Frank Hopper

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/28/2009 : 09:31:04

Ongelooflijk!!!!

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/28/2009 : 13:56:44

Be careful what you wish for... (...like a lot of attention.)

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 08/28/2009 : 17:22:36

For all those whose Dutch is a little rusty, John Russell says:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Ongelooflijk!!!!! <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Unbelieveable !!!!!

That's funny, Russell doesn't sound Dutch!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/28/2009 : 18:20:24

Soon we can expect to hear on the new something like this: "Today a 4 year old set off for an around the world sail. If little Johnny Ocean can complete the circumnavigation in under 11 months he will best the current record set by 5 year old Sally Sails set last month."

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 05:59:55

Zac Sunderland left CA and did it on a boat he bought with his own funds - and/or his stints on the Christian Bible Thumping Circuit. For some reason, his parents weren't locked up - musta been the Christian Connection. I'm still trying to figure out how faith in god allowed them to make this decision and what god has to do with it to begin with...

Anyway, Zac made it and now he is 17... I understand girls are more ahem, advanced than boys, so maybe the Dutch are wrong. I mean, they have cool cofee shops where I can catch a serious buzz and then try to sober up with coffee before I run down the street to hook-up with one of the many "Ladies in the Windows." Nevermind windmills and plugging the dikes with your fingers, these folks were out there for a long time. I say let em do it... Who of you would have sent Tania Aebi around in lieu of college? Yet she has been successful and a tribute to the independant spirit that resides deeply within all of us and just needs to be uncovered.

sten

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 06:02:52

Laura was out sailing Friday and did not attend the District Court hearing.... I love it....
You go GRRRL!

sten

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windsong
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 06:44:54

To successfully circumnavigate, you gotta WANT it. My experience with teenagers: A 13-year-old doesn't know WHAT she wants.
Then again, Tania Aibi did it at 18, and she barely knew how to sail, had never single-handed till the day she departed and was untested in her untested boat - and seemed to be doing it because she had nothing better to do. I get the sense that this girl knows her tack from her gybe. Still, a lot of difference between 13 and 18.
Ah heck, maybe I'm just jealous.

Edited by - windsong on 08/29/2009 06:47:03

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 10:33:29

Having had 3 13 year olds and one that will be in a couple of years, I think these parents are nuts. Sure, she may be a fine technical sailor. She may have an independent spirit and strong commitments but, at 13 she needs the guidance of a parent. Hell, she needs a mom or dad to hold her when she gets scared and, god knows, she will get scared out there. There's a huge difference between 13 and 18. Thinking she's ready at this age is, in my not-so-humble opinion, irresponsible parenting. I get a little crazy when parents try to get their kids to be grown up too fast. They'll have their whole life to be adults. A parents job is to help our kids be kids.

Ongelooflijk!!!! (BTW, my brother tells me that a branch of the English/Irish family tree spent time in Holland)

Besides, she doesn't have enough boat.

Edited by - John Russell on 08/29/2009 10:35:18

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 12:18:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 ...Tania Aibi did it at 18, and she barely knew how to sail, had never single-handed till the day she departed and was untested in her untested boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think she had a terribly unhealthy need to prove something to somebody... or maybe a death wish. That's not adventuresome--it's irrational.

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 13:04:00

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 ...Tania Aibi did it at 18, and she barely knew how to sail, had never single-handed till the day she departed and was untested in her untested boat...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think she had a terribly unhealthy need to prove something to somebody... or maybe a death wish. That's not adventuresome--it's irrational.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Allowing a 13 year old out to sail around the world is clearly foolhardy. Not so sure I feel that way about Tania Aibi's voyage. Eighteen is an age, yes still young, when people do some very adult things. I believe we send 18 year olds off to war. Can you be old enough to fight the Taliban but not old enough to sail around the world? Having recently read Aibi's book about her trip I believe she is not your typical 18 year old. Most young people that age would have checked it in but she persevered and grew throughout the trip. My kid would not have been able to make that trip but some people that age can.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 08/29/2009 13:05:17

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 13:12:38

18 > 13 in more than just numbers. The military taught me that.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/29/2009 : 13:44:25

If she was 38 and had never singlehanded (and "barely knew how to sail"), I'd still say the same thing: irrational.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 04:56:42

Sending a 16 year old boy out around is foolhardy too, but lets not forget the countless parents who deliver up their kids to gymnastic coaches in other parts of the planet, beauty pageants, and the like, just so the parents might win gold someday or wear a crown.

Children progress at very different levels depending on IQ and stimulation. There are 14 year olds with multiple Masters etc...

She and her father have planned a two-year voyage that would not have her at sea for longer than three weeks at a time. Doesn't sound that bad... She has an extensive sailing resume. They make kids perform at the Olympics at younger ages.

sten

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 06:50:45

I think the question is not so simple as the age of the person. The question is whether the person has it within himself or herself to rise to the challenge. Many adults dcn't have what it takes. Tania Aebi certainly did, and so did Robin Lee Graham, and others. Recently a middleaged woman decided she wanted to circumnavigate in a 20' boat, but she gave up almost imediately, when she sailed into her first storm. If a 13 year old child has had experience sailing a small boat in storms, I'm not convinced that a judge, who is not an experienced or knowledgeable long-distance sailor, has any business superseding the judgment of the parents and child. Next, judges will want to dictate the minimum age when a child should ride a small off-road motorcycle or bicycle, or a small ATV, or a go cart.

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windsong
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 07:19:37

While I think the plan is nuts, I share Steve's uneasiness with courts meddling in such matters. I think it will be interesting to see what the Dutch court decides. If they let her go, I'll be following her blog with great interest.

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 09:09:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...She and her father have planned a two-year voyage that would not have her at sea for longer than three weeks at a time. Doesn't sound that bad...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In other words, her father has planned...

13 years old on a 26-footer a week away from anywhere in a Pacific storm with breaking seas taller than her mast and white-out spray driven by 50 kt winds... At least she'll have a sat phone (?) so she can say good-bye to her father and in her blog. I guess she could also get run over by a school bus, but then her father wouldn't get nearly as much world-wide attention.

Curmudgeon

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 09:38:28

I think there are 3 necessary components of maturity. Intelligence, Knowledge and Wisdom. This 13 year old may have significant intelligence. I agree, Sten, there are kids able to study at the post-graduate level. She may have substantial knowledge regarding sailing singlehanded. I would say certainly more than I and probably more than many on this forum. She, however, likely does not have much knowledge about the non-sailing issues she will certainly face. Pirates off the coast of Africa comes easily to mind but dealing with overbearing customs agents in some 3rd world country may require a little knowledge yet to be acquired. These non-sailing issues concern me more than the scenario our resident Curmudgeon suggests. I won't even hazard a guess the effect of so much time alone might have on a 13 year old's development. Loneliness can be a terrible thing. Finally, she needs wisdom. Unfortunately, that involves aging. While she certainly may have some insights others her age would not, judgment, like fine wine, requires spending a little time in the world. I'm not suggesting that Tania Aebi was wise at 18, but certainly more than a 13 year old could be.

Steve, you mention judgment -- a huge part of wisdom. I think the father is rather tunnel-visioned here. Long distance voyaging has been a large part of his life and, I think perhaps his judgment is skewed by it. The issue is less about sailing ability than child development. She is a child.

CIT
(Curmudgeon-in-Training)

Edited by - John Russell on 08/30/2009 09:41:02

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 13:01:20

I don't know whether it is the case here, but many children have been born to long distance cruising parents and have been raised since infancy on board. They have learned sailing and seamanship from parents who have mastered it. In their first 10-12 years they have put far more miles under their keels and weathered more storms at sea than most of us will ever experience in a lifetime. To such a child, sailing across an ocean is as normal as walking across town. With all due respect, such a 13 year old "child" who has had so much training and experience is likely to also have the maturity of judgment that grows out of such experience. It would be a shame if judges would automatically categorize all 13 year olds as "children" without recognizing the obvious differences between a 13 year old child who has been raised in a 23 room house in an affluent suburb, and a 13 year old "child" who has circumnavigated twice on a 36 foot sailboat. Such children should not be treated the same.

To my way of thinking, the father is no more afflicted with tunnel vision than was Earl Woods, a thoughtful and loving father who knew that his child had greatness within him, and nurtured it.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/30/2009 13:10:08

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 13:58:48

Yup--imagine the headline: "Son of Earl Woods lost in storm on the Blue Monster at Doral" Subtitle: "Should father be charged with negligence?"

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crcalhoon
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 14:09:33

I won't make any judgements here, but I'll throw these thoughts out just for fun.

In the marina I was in in Puerto Rico about twenty years ago there was a cruising couple who had a 6 year old son, call him John. The two instances which spring immediately to mind are:

1: Johns's father is visiting on my boat when John appears alongside. "excuse me dad, do we have any brasso. I can't find any."
Dad: "did you look in the lazarette?"
"Yes sir, but all I can find is that cheap stuff we bought in Venezuela."
"We'll get some next time we go shopping."
O.K. I'll find something else to do. I was trying to polish that old bronze winch but we don't really need it."

2: Me: "Hi John. hows things?"
John: Mr. CAlhoon, I'm disgusted. I finished my first grade correspondence course and mailed it back weeks ago. They're supposed to send the second grade one and it just doesn't come. You know how it is. The longer I wait the more I'll forget and the harder it'll be. I'm doing the first grade all over."

I once asked him if he stood his own watches and he said:"Mr. Calhoon, I"m only six years old. Dad says I can't stand watches till I can see over the dodger. I'll probably be twelve by then."

I once asked his father if the kid could navigate. The answer was"he can plot a decent course, but he has a little trouble with set and drift. We use navigation as math studies."

All of which goes to say that I just don't know, but I thought you might like the little story.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 15:51:55

I agree, Steve. I think it <s>equal</s> similar to molding your child into a golfing automoton and somehow tell the world that "he wanted to do this." Obviously, however, less real peril.

I once had a boss that graduated from THE Ohio State University. She had a photo of a 2 or 3 year old kid flipping the bird at the Michigan marching band while wearing his crimson and gray sweater. Obviously at 2 or 3, that kid was a Buckeye fan and probably will be for life. Is it because he wanted to be or was he just pleasing his parent? As a parent of 4, I'm certain that many of my kids likes and dislikes are clones of my own.

A also agree that judges shouldn't make blanket decisions for all kids and that isn't happening here. (Except by me

) However, I think it the wise judge that errs on the side of caution here.

Again, I don't doubt her sailing skills far surpass mine. It's the "solo" part that bothers me here. I think I could support -- maybe-- the trip if she were alone on her boat (for record purposes) but sailing in company with Dad or some other responsible party on a second boat.

BTW, if memory serves, Tania Aebi started solo but finished with a friend. Couldn't stand the loneliness if I recall. Didn't the kid from California that just recently finish have his Dad fly to meet him somewhere to accomplish some repairs? I guess that's not really solo then.

Edited by - John Russell on 08/30/2009 15:53:09

windsong
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 17:06:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
BTW, if memory serves, Tania Aebi started solo but finished with a friend. Couldn't stand the loneliness if I recall.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry, your memory has tricked you. Tania finished solo. You're probably thinking about the fact that she didn't officially earn the record because she gave a ride to a friend for 150 miles out of the 27,000 mile trip. She could have gone back and repeated that short leg, but she decided against it, saying she wasn't in it for the record. I respect her for that.

Edited by - windsong on 08/30/2009 17:07:28

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 08/30/2009 : 19:41:12

OK... So who here who actually has kids 10 and under are preparing them to go around alone when they're in their early teens? I hear lots of defenses of other people sending their own kids--who's anteing up?? This is not gymnastics or golf--this is life and death in the environment where we fundamentally don't belong. What motivates us to send our children into it alone? Sorry, but I don't get it.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 07:07:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 OK... This is not gymnastics or golf--this is life and death in the environment where we fundamentally don't belong. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave, time to get a sailboat again - and a bluewater one at that. Men and Women have been plying the sea for nearly as long as time itself. Heck, some bearded hippee reportedly walked on it and even turned some of it into wine.

Another guy boarded a ship bound for anywhere but where the big guy wanted him to go and the seas got rough and eventually he fessed up and they threw him overboard. Understandably, the seas calmed instantly and a big fish ate the guy. Apparently he wasn't tasty, 'cuz some people believe the big fish had indigestion and coughed him back up.

My ancestors discovered America in open boats in frigid temps in a time when living to 28 made you an elder.

We fundamentally DO belong at sea. Just as much as we apparently belong living in New England frigid temps, living in the Swiss Alps, pitching tents in the desert, or watching mold grow on your body in the rain forest. Anyone of those places, especially the first one

, can kill you. The sea is actually a safer place for a 13 year old than Amsterdam, or any of the aforementioned extremes in terms of living conditions.

Think about it. A well found vessel - irrespective of size - is actually a floating pod. As long as the pod itself is not compromised, the occupant will be able to weather whatever happens. Failures which could compromise the integrity of the POD/Hull should be addressed before departure, and a ditch bag with EPIRB and a raft ready at the first sign of trouble. But essentially speaking, most boats abandoned are later found in perfect condition. For this reason, some Governments will force you to open your sea cocks at sea upon abandoning your vessel.

Ken Barnes Just before being "rescued" off his 44' Ketch.... Note: Donna Lange - on a 28' was 150 nm behind and was gonna rescue Ken Doll, but 4 guys in a Zodiac got there faster.

Note the condition of the vessel - sitting nicely on her lines.

Trust me, this kid will be fine and will have a lifetime of great stories and the ability to generate revenue in any port by providing sailing instruction or whatever. That's what Tania does for money. She, the Dutch Girl, probably worships Ellen Mac's feet and thinks Roxy's Sam is the worlds greatest.

And uh, Dimitrios Loundras, at 10 years 216 days old competed on the parallel bars. He was part of the Greek team that won silver during the 1896 Athens Olympics. And the Brits have a 13 YO diver competing in the Beijing Games.

The sometimes safety curmudgeon...

sten

Edited by - on

pfduffy
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Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 07:12:52

Dave - I have an 8 year old son who I sailed for a few hours with yesterday. Now I did not grow up on sailboats and neither is he - we are day sailors (at least for now) - but I can't fathom being ready in 5 years to see him off on such a voyage. I'm with you Dave - risk taking such as this makes no sense.

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