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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 07:43:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave Bristle
 OK... So who here who actually has kids 10 and under are preparing them to go around alone when they're in their early teens? I hear lots of defenses of other people sending their own kids--who's anteing up?? This is not gymnastics or golf--this is life and death in the environment where we fundamentally don't belong. What motivates us to send our children into it alone? Sorry, but I don't get it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It should be apparent that I'm not saying we should all allow or urge our children to circumnavigate alone. What I'm saying is that one size doesn't fit all. I have known 13 year olds who exhibited the emotional maturity and self-discipline to do such a thing, if they also had the necessary sailing and navigational skills and the proper equipment. Moreover, I don't believe the plan calls for a non-stop circumnavigation. That's important, because it means, for much of the voyage, the child isn't going to be alone at sea for months on end. By daily radio communications, the parents can provide encouragement and guidance, evaluate the child's on-going ability to cope with the stresses, and at each stop along the way, they will have an opportunity to terminate the voyage. Loving and informed parents are in a much better position to make such judgments than a judge who doesn't know their child and who might harbor an irrational fear of the sea.

Some people have such a fear of the sea that they think it reckless for anyone, child or adult, to cross an ocean in a small boat. While the risks cannot be discounted, those fears are irrational. That has been proven time and again by the likes of Captain Bligh, who crossed 3600 miles of practically uncharted Pacific in an open, leaky, 19' boat, and Shackleton, who crossed 600 miles of the wild southern ocean in a 19' boat, and Joshua Slocum, and tens of thousands of others who have crossed oceans in small boats, many of them in the company of their children.

If an overriding, irrational concern for the safety of an emotionally mature and nautically competent 13 year old child can prevent that child from sailing alone around the world, then where does the over-protection stop? How far will the court allow a 13 year old to sail alone? Across an inland lake and back? Across Lake Erie? Twenty miles along the Florida coast, from one inlet to the next? Across the Gulf Stream, from Miami to Bimini?

If sailing across an ocean is so inherently dangerous that it is reckless for anyone, child or adult, to cross an ocean in a small boat, then perhaps the courts, in an abundance of concern for the safety of your child, shouldn't allow your child to accompany his parents on an extended cruise? Should a parent consult his lawyer whenever he decides to take his child on a sailing cruise, to ensure that some judge won't think it too dangerous for a child, take temporary guardianship of the child, and put the child in foster care until the parent returns?

My child is now an adult, so it isn't a personal concern for me, but I think the case raises troubling issues for sailors about the appropriateness of a court's interference with parental discretion.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 08:28:46

what he said! VERY WELL WORDED Dr. Milby!

sten

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2009 : 08:43:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcalhoon
 I won't make any judgements here, but I'll throw these thoughts out just for fun.

In the marina I was in in Puerto Rico about twenty years ago there was a cruising couple who had a 6 year old son, call him John. The two instances which spring immediately to mind are:

1: Johns's father is visiting on my boat when John appears alongside. "excuse me dad, do we have any brasso. I can't find any."
Dad: "did you look in the lazarette?"
"Yes sir, but all I can find is that cheap stuff we bought in Venezuela."
"We'll get some next time we go shopping."
O.K. I'll find something else to do. I was trying to polish that old bronze winch but we don't really need it."

2: Me: "Hi John. hows things?"
John: Mr. CAlhoon, I'm disgusted. I finished my first grade correspondence course and mailed it back weeks ago. They're supposed to send the second grade one and it just doesn't come. You know how it is. The longer I wait the more I'll forget and the harder it'll be. I'm doing the first grade all over."

I once asked him if he stood his own watches and he said:"Mr. Calhoon, I"m only six years old. Dad says I can't stand watches till I can see over the dodger. I'll probably be twelve by then."

I once asked his father if the kid could navigate. The answer was"he can plot a decent course, but he has a little trouble with set and drift. We use navigation as math studies."

All of which goes to say that I just don't know, but I thought you might like the little story.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I meant to respond to this and just forgot. We have met this kid and a few like him/her. Unfreaking believeable... If you really want to elevate your kid's intelectual functionality, take em cruising. Well behaved, stupidly smart, and capable of handling the boat solo in 97% of the cases we ran into since we've been cruising. The kids row forward better than most of us row backwards, they sail the dink at 5 knots, and they routinely haul the hook and have the engines started before mom and dad even get up. I've seen it on the ICW! A little kid 8 years old - we found out later - going down the ditch with his 12 YO sister navigating while mom and dad slept in. We passed em, and I had to do a double take. It looked like they were on autopilot from a distance. We hailed em, and the 8 YO came back with, "Good morning Captain, what can I do for you?"

Almost makes me wanna have one!

sten

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 10:03:01

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think about navigation. Now we all know that GPS is the standard these days. And we all know that machines break. And that batteries run down or get soaked and discharge or get eaten by gremlins. So we can assume that, all being well, the kid will always know where she is. All she has to know is how to read a GPS and plot a position. And keep a Ded reckoning chart for good measure, I guess. I have monkeyed with the old fashioned celestial a good bit, using my plastic sextant and it is a skill to be learned. I have difficulty in considering a round the world passage without celestial skill (and celestial help). I remember from my studies that the accuracy of your fix is almost directly correlated to the number of sights you have taken. It is a skill and a demanding one.

Also one which must be practiced and maintained. I once had a crew member for awhile who was a professional seaman and had once taught a course in celestial nav. When he was out with me he hadn't done it in several years and he had trouble, largely with the bouncing about and lack of stability in comparison to that of the ocean going tug boats he was accustomed to.

So I wonder: what if the GPS fails. Can the kid navigate?

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 13:13:02

Sten, those individuals you speak about are adults. That's why we and apparently the Netherlands, have laws protecting children. We fundamentally belong in water, but the the unforgiving sea. I agree the courts are too involved in our lives in telling us what to do, but in this case it is justified. Sending a child on this mission only shows the parents are interested in their own glory and not their child's welfare.
Steve A

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 14:05:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by crcalhoon
 I have difficulty in considering a round the world passage without celestial skill (and celestial help). So I wonder: what if the GPS fails. Can the kid navigate?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll bet she does know how to use a sextant, but most cruisers carry at least 3 or more GPS aids to navigation so if one fails they have a backup.

We have a sextant on board Lysistrata, but I have yet to take a sight and verify its accuracy. If you kept up with your charts, and Obama pulls the GPS plug, you should still follow your compass heading and plot hourly based on heading and speed.

Trivia question - What is "Dead Reckoning" and is a sextant required?

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 14:27:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Sten, those individuals you speak about are adults. That's why we and apparently the Netherlands, have laws protecting children. We fundamentally belong in water, but the the unforgiving sea. I agree the courts are too involved in our lives in telling us what to do, but in this case it is justified. Sending a child on this mission only shows the parents are interested in their own glory and not their child's welfare.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Zac Sunderland was 16 when he departed. He paid $6000 for his boat and then spent 3 months fixing it up. Should the State of California have jailed his parents or sent the Coasties after the kid? Were truancy officers dispatched to the docks when he failed to show up for school? Should he have a paper route? He could get hit by a car, or kidnapped. Cell phones emit radiation, should the courts decide at what age a child should have a cell phone?

The military sends young people to war at the whims of their commander in chief, yet the ROTC is allowed to operate on high school and college campuses - in some cases hastening the demise of these young people. Should the courts get involved when a parent is supportive of a military career at the tender age of say 13? Should the courts ban ROTC programs from schools knowing that this is a major cause of death and trauma (read lifetime disabilities)in this country?

I agree overall, 13 does sound young. However, since she has come from a sailing family, it seems to make sense that all parties involved have carefully weighed the issues and are sensible - more sensible than those of us who just putter on boats but don't actually take them anywhere.

But, I had my first real job at 14, got mugged at knifepoint the same year going home after work - I was a bagger at a grocery store - had fake id and was dating a girl who was in college who let me drive!

Ran away shortly thereafter to LA, put myself thru High School and College, got an MBA and started a couple of businesses. Failure is not an option, and those who ply the sea are typically more sane than those who don't.

sten

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 15:46:22

Sten, there is a huge difference between 13 and 16 and ( I know I will get hate mail for saying so) a huge difference between male and female, especially at that age. Mainly in strength. And I by no means want to imply women are less competent. But I would not want my daughter, which I do have one, to be facing a situation where pirates are coming down on her and needing a weapon to defend herself, like Zac needed to do but the pirates decided for whatever reason to back off. Lets wonder what they would have done if the saw a young girl! Shame on you Sten for wanting to allow my daughter or any daughter that age to make that kind of decision when you yourself have no children as I think you stated.
Steve A

Edited by - piseas on 09/01/2009 15:53:33

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 05:58:17

Every situation is different. No person should presume to understand another person's or family's. Children and adults vary greatly in their abilities and maturity. Having said that, a 13 to 16 year old of either sex is not likely equipped to handle a boat full of pirates. Hmmmmmmmm, Is an adult?

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 06:19:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Shame on you Sten for wanting to allow my daughter or any daughter that age to make that kind of decision when you yourself have no children as I think you stated.
Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmmm, let me be clear - I do not want to allow your daughter, nor the daughter of anyone reading this, nor the daughter of a C25 owner past, present, nor future, to make the trip around. Just not enough experience and the courts should stop YOU! My not having had children is not relevant. My experiences with ocean going folks and my own experiences at sea are. I would not suggest that any of you even allow your teenage daughters to take out your C25 for a solo daysail - I am positive they do not know enough. But to apply your standards based on your limited experience to a teen with probably more knowledge than any of us here is ludicrous.

She is going to go, the question is - at what age? Is 14 OK? 15? 16? still a minor and subject to the discretionary judgement of her parents.

How many kids get pregnant, hooked on cigs, booze and drugs at that age (13)? Do you know that pre-teens and early teens who take the abstinence pledge are 70% more likely to engage in oral and/or anal sex than those who don't? Should the courts ban these typically church based abstinence pledges?

At what point do you think YOUR parental decisions should be revoked by the government? As Steve Milby pointed out, just taking your child out on a boat could be considered dangerous by some. Should we start locking up sailors who take their daughters sailing?

BTW, I'm quite sure a chase boat would be deployed in known piracy sectors - but a good point.

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 09:09:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> question - What is "Dead Reckoning" and is a sextant required?
sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I guess I will have to answer my own trivia question... A sextant is an "Aid to Navigation," therefore it like the GPS is not required for "Dead Reckoning."

"Dead Reckoning" is when you navigate based on heading and speed thru the water sans aids.

sten

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 11:56:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
just taking your child out on a boat could be considered dangerous by some. Should we start locking up sailors who take their daughters sailing?
sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sten, My last word. Taking out a child in a boat, assuming competant and able and sober captain, is totally different than letting 13yr old sail solo around the world. Lets just agree to disagree. No hard feelings, just different perspectives.
Steve A

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2009 : 15:53:17

Tania Aebi interviewed on NPR today about the Dutch girl case.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1& t=1& islist=false& id=112526831& m=112531649

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2009 : 16:42:05

Interesting, Mike. I also find it interesting that she supports the 13 year old but she went with her kids on their sailing adventure to Tahiti and her ex-husband (kid's Dad) brought them back.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2009 : 04:39:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Interesting, Mike. I also find it interesting that she supports the 13 year old but she went with her kids on their sailing adventure to Tahiti and her ex-husband (kid's Dad) brought them back.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tania Aebi's kids weren't really THAT into sailing. (Tania wasn't either - her situation was actually worse as an 18 YO, than the kids trying to do it today. She knew nothing when she left NYC.) I followed the story of her recent half circumnavigation, and she and her ex husband made a deal - and that was the deal, he was going to bring them back. The boys experienced two very different trips and it was and is a remarkable story. But her kids apparently don't have the same thirst for sailing as Laura, Zac and the other kid who is the current youngest does. Interesting to think about all of the technology today compared to when Tania went around. Good NPR interview - I'm not surprised at her comments.

sten

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2009 : 08:25:16

Mom opposes Dutch girl's plan to sail the globe[url="http://www.rr.com/sports/sports/article/rr/9003/8835329/Mom_opposes_Dutch_girls_plan_to_sail_the_globe"]

AP Wire report[/url]

'nuff said from a woman that has substantial blue water sailing experiences -- her Mom.

Edited by - John Russell on 09/05/2009 08:26:49

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 10:35:41

Personally, I think the father should have a mandatory psychiatric evaluation as well. It's fun to be an armchair quarterback, but the proof will be in the pudding and this is not the kind of pudding I want to even consider. Obviously we'll pray for clarity for this Dutch court.

If this child dies or is seriously injured at sea, there will be serious consequences for all child sailors-and would be adventurers of all kinds. It's a shame that this father feels he must put his "Isaac" to the knife in this way.

Vern Wright

Edited by - on

Steve Blackburn
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1091 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 14:32:28

I was wondering yesterday how low the age will get. I guess I have my answer, at the moment 13. A pirate finding a 13 year old girl on a sailboat sees $$$ and you will never find the girl again. Thank god for courts protecting our children from crazy parents. Remove the boat from the equation and it still doesn't make sense, would you send your 13 year old daughter on a world trip alone?

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 15:28:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Blackburn
 .Remove the boat from the equation and it still doesn't make sense, would you send your 13 year old daughter on a world trip alone?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...with a 12-hour layover in Mogadishu?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 09:45:23

Update
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091220/ap_on_re_eu/eu_netherlands_young_sailor

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 09:55:48

I was just about to post that paul. The saga goes on. If she "ran away" that certainly says something about her maturity level and not in a good way. If she was abetted by her parents, it says something about their parenting skills as well.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 12/20/2009 : 19:54:39

Yes, all discourses on wisdom and judgement aside, she behaved like a 13 year old.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 07:16:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Yes, all discourses on wisdom and judgment aside, she behaved like a 13 year old. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ya think?

I see a very determined young lady who had the wherewithal to successfully make it from Switzerland to the Caribbean. I would call her advanced and gutsy.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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1771 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 17:34:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Yes, all discourses on wisdom and judgment aside, she behaved like a 13 year old. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ya think?

I see a very determined young lady who had the wherewithal to successfully make it from Switzerland to the Caribbean. I would call her advanced and gutsy.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed. me thinks she is a bit capable...

sten

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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Response Posted - 12/21/2009 : 17:39:46

I've been on the fence on this one, but it's getting too uncomfortable.

How long before a gazillionaire buys a seat on a soyuz for his preteen in order to get the 'Youngest Astronaut' badge.

If a 5 year old kid did a solo cicumnavigation then would there be any pressure to have a 14 year old even try!

I think it's nuts to recognize the youngest achievement of something that either takes great guts, or great stupidity to achive.

There really is nothing to be gained other than the Ego burst "I did that when I was just 14"

So, officially, I'm off the fence. I think the mom is correct and she has it right.

Drag the kid home, and ask if she wants to risk the lives of potential rescuers if something goes wrong.

Paul

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