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How wrong was I? ColRegs question

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KD4AO
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Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 06:19:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 "....I knew I'd be excoriated a bit when I posted about it, but I wanted a better understanding, and I've got pretty thick skin, plus someone else might learn from it as well."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

David, thank you for sharing this with everyone on the forum, it is something most will encounter sometime in their sailing adventures (maybe not a ship but a larger vessel with unknown intentions) and the right answer will most likely not always be the same.

Edited by - KD4AO on 09/01/2009 06:22:48

piseas
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Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 13:41:33

David, no one should feel criticized for asking for help. You went out on a limb here to expose yourself. As you have read, this discussion is an extremely valuable one. We learn by our experiences, hopefully, and thru the sharing of others. I would send you out another burgee for being honest and putting yourself out there but know you already have one. Remember, only a fool says he has learned all there is to learn. Thanks so much for your post.
Steve A

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 17:50:52

I just came across this listing for the Houston, Galveston area and apparently you can pass within 100 yards of a cruide ship here.

"All Cruise Ships: Vessels may enter within 500 yards of a cruise ship but not closer than 100 yards provided they operate at the minimum speed necessary to maintain a safe course. No person or vessel may enter within 100 yards of a cruise ship unless pecifically authorized by the Captain of the Port."

Here's a link to the site -->> http://www.uscg.mil/vtshouston/docs/COTP%20H-G%20Security%20Zones.pdf

Edited by - GaryB on 09/01/2009 17:54:16

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/01/2009 : 20:31:59

Gary,
Thanks for the link, I did some research for Seattle Security Zones, and it turns out the SPD were wrong about the 500 yards, it's 100 yards. Here's the relevant quote:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Coast Guard has established security zones to protect passenger vessels (over 100 feet in length) such as ferries and cruise ships in Puget Sound. Vessels within 500 yards of a ferry or cruise ship should slow to minimum speed to maintain a safe course, and maintain at least 100 yards distance at all times unless they have obtained permission to approach from the ferry or cruise ship captain or the Coast Guard's offical patrol.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://www.portseattle.org/about/security/seaportsecurity.shtml

So, apparently we were never in the wrong until the police pinched us between their boat and the cruise ship which eventually passed within about 80 yards or so of us. Slowing to a safe speed hardly seems to apply when you're only doing about 2 knots in the first place.

I still think this was a good learning experience, and there were better things I could have done than what I did, but at least now I don't feel as irritated about it.

Edited by - delliottg on 09/01/2009 20:33:54

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 10:39:23

Here in our neck of the woods, when sailing from Northern Michigan to Isle Royale or Canada you must cross the Lake Superior Shipping Lane. It is clearly marked on the chart and you enter it at your own risk. Two sets of eyes searching the horizon and a radar reflector are a necessity, especially during periods of limited visility. Everyone crossing gives the freighters a wide birth even at a two or three mile distance.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 11:42:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 
So, apparently we were never in the wrong until the police pinched us between their boat and the cruise ship which eventually passed within about 80 yards or so of us. Slowing to a safe speed hardly seems to apply when you're only doing about 2 knots in the first place.

I still think this was a good learning experience, and there were better things I could have done than what I did, but at least now I don't feel as irritated about it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree with the speed issue and this has definitely been a great learning experience (at least for me)!

I'm still not sure how I'm supposed to maintain 100 yards when traversing the 1-2 mile section of the Houston Ship channel with shallow spoil areas on both sides. I'll try to hail the ship to let them know what I can and cannot do.

Several months ago I was sailing down the channel in the area mentioned above and was hugging the edge of the spoil area and the ship channel and it felt like I could reach out and touch the ships as they passed. It was freaky being that close to something that big moving at 15 - 20 knots. I could see 5-10 foot walls of breaking water out in the bay on both side of the channel from the ships wake.

The other issue was the wind. It was 12 - 18 knots and was coming straight down the channel so I had to keep tacking back and forth across the channel between ships. I tried to motor but it was too rough.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/02/2009 11:46:15

piseas
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 11:45:28

David, don't know how far you want to push it, but you might want to contact the Seattle Harbor Police pointing out these regs and ask for a clarification.
Steve A

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 17:51:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 David, don't know how far you want to push it, but you might want to contact the Seattle Harbor Police pointing out these regs and ask for a clarification.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It might be worth it to get the record of that warning erased.

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 18:43:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It might be worth it to get the record of that warning erased.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was thinking the same thing.

Here's the cruise ship

And the police boat:

Edited by - delliottg on 09/02/2009 18:55:31

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 19:09:45

Looks like some Seattle taggers got through the security zone!

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/02/2009 : 19:43:44

Here's what I sent to them:

 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">On Sunday afternoon, one of your patrol boats pulled up alongside us to inform us that we were in violation of a 500 yard security zone around the Norwegian Pearl who had just gotten underway from pier 66. I've done some research, and there is no 500 yard security zone as such for passenger vessels, only for US Military vessels. Passenger vessels such as the Norwegian Pearl and WA State ferries have a 100 yard security zone. Please reference your own website:

http://www.portseattle.org/about/security/seaportsecurity.shtml

Your officers issued us a "verbal warning" after noting our boat's vessel registration number (S/V Sirius Lepak, WN 7529 NU). While I think your officers acted very professionally, I wanted to point out that they were in error regarding the 500 yard security zone they'd told us we'd violated. By the time they arrived, we'd matched courses with the cruise ship, further away than the security zone necessitated. I would like to have the verbal warning expunged and a letter from the Port Of Seattle indicating that it has been.

Thank you,

David & Rita,
S/V Sirius Lepak<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

jerlim
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Response Posted - 09/03/2009 : 08:13:47

David - PLEASE let us know their response!!!

Edited by - on

Champipple
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Response Posted - 09/03/2009 : 17:03:52

Jumping in on this one late, but here goes.

Colregs aside the following rules apply.

1. Rule of tonnage - self explanatory, usually trumps all but the rule of common sense.
2. Commercial vessels have right of way, regardless of tack, course or Canoe
3. If the port has a 500 foot security rule for commercial vessels or if the country has a rule for commercial vessels or government vessels/navy ships you have to keep clear regardless. I thought it was 200 feet.
4. in a bay or harbor don't expect them to hail you. It is a shame, but most recreational sailors don't use the radio and the rest don't have one. Many Captains have long since given up hailing the gen pop who are out for a family sail. Sten is right, watch how much respect you get when you hail him. I've seen some smaller commercial craft actually stay clear by a lot and only because you got them on the horn.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 09/03/2009 : 21:17:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Champipple
 
3. If the port has a 500 foot security rule for commercial vessels or if the country has a rule for commercial vessels or government vessels/navy ships you have to keep clear regardless. I thought it was 200 feet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's yards, and generally if you're anywhere close to 100, you should be going away from the ship. The 500 yard zone more for boats like mine--if I'm inside it, I'd better not be on plane.

If you call that cruise ship in the harbor, he's highly unlikely to answer, because he's not interested in discussing his course with riff-raff that isn't supposed to be anywhere in the vicinity.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/06/2009 : 18:51:16

Here's some more info in regards to operating near naval vessels -->> http://www.uscgboating.org/alerts/alertsview.aspx?id=21

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/07/2009 : 11:56:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Violations of the Naval Vessel Protection Zone are a felony offense, punishable by up to 6 years in prison and/or up to $250,000 in fines<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...which is why I stay at least a mile away. (Six years in prison might be the rest of my life!)

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 07:46:28

This news article was recently posted. The Coasties are going to be increasingly serious about enforcing the separation zones.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090911/us_nm/us_security_boat

EDIT: When I first posted this article, it reported that the Coasties fired 10 shots at a "suspicious" recreational boat on the Potomac River. Now it claims that it was only a training exercise. I don't know what to believe. Is it possible that the officers planned a training exercise, firing ten shots on the Potomac River, and nobody thought to warn the press and public, so they wouldn't be alarmed?

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/11/2009 08:19:02

JohnP
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Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 17:16:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[i] Is it possible that the officers planned a training exercise, firing ten shots on the Potomac River, and nobody thought to warn the press and public, so they wouldn't be alarmed?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What's even more surprising is that the Coast Guard carried out an emergency training exercise within a short distance of an event attended by President Obama in DC without considering the fallout from this scheduling decision!

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/11/2009 : 20:35:57

Here's my email exchanges with the Port of Seattle Harbor Police, myself & Rita. I've edited out email addresses & phone numbers, but made no other changes. It's a bit long, but educational.

 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Dear Mr. Gonsalves,

I just wanted to let you know that I have received your email regarding the contact you had with our Marine Patrol Boat and I will be researching the matter. I will get back to you next week with my findings.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concern.

Commander Eliadis

Cmdr. John Eliadis
Seaport Division
Port of Seattle Police Department
<phone>
Forwarded conversation
Subject: Vessel Warning Finding
------------------------

From: Eliadis, John <email>
Date: Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 8:44 AM

To: David Gonsalves <email>
Cc: "Addison, Pat" <email>

Dear Mr. Gonsalves,

I have done some research into the proper procedures regarding large passenger vessel protection zones, to include written procedures and discussions with Coast Guard staff located at Pier 36.

The Port web site is partially correct when it states the there is a 100 yard exclusion zone. The site fails to advise there is also a 500 yard protection/exclusionary zone.

Boaters are indeed restricted from approaching within 100 yards of a large passenger vessel, such as a cruise ship or State Ferry. Vessels that MUST pass within 100 yards due to navigational limitations shall contact the on-scene official patrol or vessel master on VHF-FM channel 16 or 13. In this particular instance, the Port of Seattle Police Department patrol boat and its crew were the “official patrol”.

When approaching within 100-500 yards, boaters must slow to a minimum speed necessary to maintain a safe course and proceed at the direction of the official patrol or vessel master while within this range. When contacted by the Port Officers, they directed you to remain outside the 500 yard zone since there was no need for you to be within this zone. I spoke with one of the Officers on board at the time and was advised that you were within approximately 250 yards. Close enough that the crew did not feel it was safe to approach your boat by getting between you and the cruise ship.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, USCG “Boaters found within these restricted areas may be deemed to constitute a security threat, and will face a rapid response. At a minimum, vessels owners that enter exclusionary zones should expect to be boarded by authorities and directed to leave the restricted area.”

I hope this answers your questions and concern. I will be contacting the Port’s web master and ask that they include the 500 yard zone around passenger vessels in their informational site.

Ref: Title 33 subpart F 165.1317

Cmdr. John Eliadis
Seaport Division
Port of Seattle Police Department
<phone>

----------
From: David Gonsalves <email>
Date: Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:21 AM
To: Rita Gonsalves <email>

Nice letter from the port.

----------
From: Rita Ho <email>
Date: Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:54 AM
To: David Gonsalves <email>

Yes, and I'm glad they are correcting the website regulations. If we were 250 yards from the liner, 100 yards is too near and scary!

He didn't say anything about the verbal warning but I'm not surprised since erasing it would mean his officers were in error which they really weren't. At least we have our concern on record and indirectly played a part in making sure other boaters now know the right zone distances. Good job, dear!

----------
From: David Gonsalves <email>
Date: Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 10:13 AM
To: "Eliadis, John" <email>
Cc: "Addison, Pat" <email>, Rita Gonsalves <email>

Commander Eliadis,
Thank you for your inquiry into this matter. My wife and I learned a fair amount about the ColRegs and port procedures from this experience. We have also educated several hundred of our fellow Catalina sailors in the process by airing this question on the Catalina 25 International Association forum. If you're interested, you can read the thread here: ColRegs question, how wrong was I?

I believe your patrol boat folks are being generous, I'd estimate that when the Norwegian Pearl passed along side of us we were maybe 150 yards south of her at most (you'll note this is roughly double my estimate of 80 yards in the forum thread mentioned above, after viewing the photos my wife took, I modified my estimate). As you noted below, I should have contacted the Pearl on 13 when her intentions weren't clear (I was monitoring 9,13,14,16 & 22a at the time). I believed that she would pass astern of me to give the other cruise ship backing down out of pier 91 some sea room. I intentionally didn't tack to the south because of this, I was worried I'd simply put myself into her path. Once it became obvious that they were going to pass my bow, I should have started my engine and just motored out of the situation instead of paralleling their course. However, by that time she was close enough that I was hesitant to do anything to change my course in the very light winds (we were doing less than 2 kts during the entire encounter). I didn't want to end up in her wind shadow with no steerage (which would have been obviated by simply starting my engine).

I have a couple more questions if you don't mind:

* I was not contacted by your boat on 13 or 16 (or by the Pearl, but that's not surprising), or if the attempt was made, it wasn't obvious to either of us that it had occurred. I'm not clear if they should have attempted to contact us or assumed we didn't have a VHF?
* Are ships leaving pier 66 restricted to a channel such that she had no choice but to use the course she chose?

With your permission, I'd like to include your response below to the forum thread mentioned above so there is a bit of closure for everyone.

Thank you again for your attention to this.

David & Rita Gonsalves

----------
From: Eliadis, John <email>
Date: Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 2:21 PM
To: David Gonsalves <email>
Cc: "Addison, Pat" <email>, Rita Gonsalves <email>

Mr. Gonsalves,

Thank you for your email. Feel free to post my email response on the forum thread. The information exchange may help to educate other pleasure boaters.

I spoke with the Officer piloting our patrol boat, and asked him about attempting to contact you by radio. He told me that normally, if there is time, they will attempt to contact the boat in question by radio, however in this particular situation, there was no attempt to make radio contact. The Officer explained that it was their decision to make direct contact and hail you by utilizing the PA system due to the fact there was not much time from when they first noticed your sail boat and when they turned to make contact. In the time it would have taken to attempt to contact you by radio, they were close enough to make contact with the use of the PA system.

In response to your question about the course of the cruise ships when entering or leaving the pier, there is no designated course utilized by the ships. When departing, the pilot will try to take the most direct and safest route from the pier to the shipping/traffic lane. There may be as many as three cruise ships in port and they will often depart about the same time, which requires coordination between the pilots, USCG, Port of Seattle Police Boat, and the Washington Ferries. Cruise ship pilots are in close radio communication with one another as well as the ferry captains and support vessels. They keep each other informed of their departure times, boating events and any potential hazards as they are departing their respective piers and then take the safest course based on the information obtained and their own visual observations. Once the cruise ship is underway and establishing a course, it’s up to other boaters to stay clear. Our patrol boat will stay in front of the cruise ships with their emergency lights activated to assist in warning boaters and to assist in clearing a safe path. If you find yourself in a situation where you need to approach a ferry or cruise ship within the 500 yard perimeter, I recommend that you initiate radio contact with the ship vessel master or on-scene official patrol vessel(s) and advise of your intensions.

Thank you for your concern and interest in this matter. If I can be of any additional assistance in the further, please feel to contact me.

Cmdr. John Eliadis
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 09/12/2009 : 05:16:45

Yeppers... Guess that about settles that! Nice work!

sten

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Nautiduck
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Response Posted - 09/12/2009 : 08:29:20

Thanks David and also kudos to the Seattle Police who, by my view, were very prompt and courteous in their replies to you.

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