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10 Footitis

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Phredde
Navigator

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125 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/01/2009 : 19:49:05

Or at least that's what I've heard it called. I've been <s>thinking</s>, OK maybe dreaming, about a bigger boat. Why? Comfort, speed, safety, sailing frequency, space for guests, more comfortable over-nighters, possible offshore action, maybe Mexico one day, etc. etc. Seems like now might be the time for a relatively inexpensive upgrade opportunity. Keeping in mind total costs like berthing & maintenance too.

So, open questions to the forum. If you were a bay/coastal sailor where slips are pretty darn expensive. And if you had 10+ years in your trusty (sometimes rusty) Cat 25. And if you had the funds say 25-50k max purchase, and were so inclined....

WWAC25SD?
What Would a C25 Sailor Do?

1) Buy another Catalina?

1a) If so, what size? Is there really that much difference between a C30, C32, C34, or C36?

2)What other models would you consider?

3)Would you limit the age of boat? For instance lots of semi-nice looking Islanders and Columbia's from the 70's around here, but....

4) What features would you insist upon? (e.g roller furling, all lines led aft, etc.)

5) What else would you ask yourself first? OK, I know, I know get a survey, but what else?

6) Or would you just forget it? Spend the money on something else and glory in the love of small boat sailing on the open waters. After all, is there anything better than rocking and rolling at 8 knots with a face full of spray and wondering whether you will live to tell the tale? Maybe not.

Phredde
Catalina 25
San Francisco

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 20:45:12

I've had the same fantasies -- errr thoughts.

I think the decider for me would be the ability to get away from the slip alone. I like to sail alone. Having said that, if I'm ever to move up, I think I'd want at least 30 feet at the water line. I'm all about comfort while sailing. Choppy Lake Erie sure can make a shorter boat bounce. So, while I really like the C36 for its "condo on the lake" appeal, I think that it might be a bit much for a quick, impulsive day/evening sail. I'm sure singlehanded sailing wouldn't be an insurmountable problem but, getting in and out of a crowded marina might discourage the single-hander. Of course, since this is a fantasy, bow/stern thrusters could make tight maneuvering easier. Roller furled main and genoa would be a must-have along with all lines aft, etc. An electric windlass for the anchor would be nice as would a Binimi/Dodger combination. All the electronic gadgets of course. The admiral would want the creature comforts like air conditioning, refrigeration, pressurized hot and cold water. I guess I wouldn't complain about those.

I guess the first question would be: "Will this be a boat that is sailed regularly or a dock queen that is pretty to look at?" If it's the latter, I'd rather have a condo on the beach or maybe the mountains.

Anyway, it's funny you brought this up, I was having this very fantasy while driving back from my daughter's college today. It started right after I passed a Mega Lotto sign on the highway. Hhhhmmmmmmm - maybe I should buy a ticket.

Edited by - John Russell on 10/01/2009 20:47:25

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5904 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2009 : 23:42:22

I wouldn't give much thought to the manufacturer of the boat. I'd look for the nicest boat for the money that would do the kind of sailing that I have in mind. Catalina would certainly be on my short list for coastal cruising, but there are lots of nice boats to choose from. Look for a boat that has refrigeration, AC, autopilot, diesel engine, bimini, dodger, working instruments (esp. depth and hard-wired gps), and make the seller demonstrate that they all work, and show you how to use them. Make him fill all tanks, esp. water, and prove that you can draw water from all of them. A propane stove is also nice.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 04:00:46

I agree with John and Steve.

I think many of us have had similar fantasies or changed them into reality.

A big decision in going larger is the kind of sailing you do right now. I do single-handed sailing 90% of the time and so there is probably a limit as to the size when it gets a bit of an overkill and maybe a bit harder to handle a larger boat just for single-handed sailing. The Cat 25 seems to work out fine for this type of sailing. I would entertain going up to a 30 foot and a Catalina 30 would be on my short list. Perhaps I would go upscale a bit...maybe a Sabre 30 since that is what I rememeber entertaining a number of years ago. But half the fun is going to a boat show and seeing what is out there and then see what the going prices are for a used one since $50K just goes so far.

I always liked the idea of a boat with some cool options like a bow thruster. How much I would use it (or need it) is another thing and it certainly does not do anything for the sailing experience. Don't think I would put it on a Cat 25.

Another idea would be to do a few upgrades to your Cat 25 - maybe get new sails for one thing. Maybe some high tech navigation gear. Then use the remaining dough and put aside ...use it for a vacation to Europe or whatever. Going to a larger boat also has the added dock fees, insurance and possibly added maintenance costs...so maybe save some in the kitty if you do go for a larger boat.

Edited by - OLarryR on 10/02/2009 04:02:51

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 04:30:56

I sailed on a 2004 Catalina 350 as part of a fractional sailing program last year. This year I purchased a Catalina 250. While I like having my own boat closer to where I live, (and it will eventually be more affordable), the 350 with automatic pilot and prop in front of rudder was much easier to manuver and single hand.

Start coaming the boat yards because with this economy there are many reasonable boats slated to be chopped up. Also consider a fractional sailing program. You usually are assigned to one very nice boat and though it takes some scheduling, you usually get to sail when ever you want. When you are aboard it's your ship. It is usually much less costly than owning your own-for the boat you get at least.

I guess the things I would look for would have to do with the configuration of the need tree. Do you need a boat that you can fix up to make into a real gem, or do you want something decent in sail away condition?

In any case do make sure there is no delamination.

If going for an older boat I'd steer clear of the production boats- especially Beneteau. I saw some older Beneteau's the other day and they do not appear to age well. The use of veneer does not hold up to the real thing. Not sure what Catalina used for cabinetry in the seventies and eighties. C&Cs seem to age very well.

Good Luck,
Vern

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 06:36:02

When I go bigger, it will be to 30 -31; the Pacific Seacraft/Crealock 31 is on my fantasy list, but at well over $100k for a good old boat, not on my real, or even dream, list. The Southern Cross 31 was on my dream list for decades, but at 65, I 'm not likely to see the ocean crossings that she was designed for; a coastal cruiser with Caribbean island hopping capability is closer to what I will get. My list definitely includes the C-309/310, Watkins 29/32, Pearson, and IP. Even the dream list should be culled by the personal list of "must have", "must not", "nice to have", the essential "pleasing to my eye", and an honest appraisal of my future sailing.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 07:07:46

I'd like to live aboard at some point, so I'm thinking 35 ft. or so. Not limiting myself to a particular manufacturer and not afraid to buy a 1970 boat if the survey is good. It'll have to be easy to get away from the dock and singlehand. Although I have no regrets about buying Bamboo (that had very little electronics and a small group of sails), next time I'll be looking closer at the amenities on board. In between this and that there may be a 28 to 32 ft.'er. And I agree now is certainly a great time to buy, but I have to wait until my self storage business picks back up. Believe it or not the storage business is down right now, people who can't afford their mortgage also can't afford storage.

Edited by - on

mhartong
Navigator

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USA
152 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 07:52:24

My secret fantasy world is Cat 28 Mk2.

Big enough for one to live comfortably for extended periods but still could crew with more, shallow enough draft to roam the backwaters of the Chesapeake, more stable, still small enough to single hand in and out of the marina without too much problem, with side decks instead of up and over the cabin top, better ventilation, a navigation station instead of a charts taped to the table, greater headroom, a more rationale salon table, no exterior woodwork, a light and open aft berth similar to the C250, a slightly more functional head, length and beam fit into an under 30' (read cheaper) slip, a more functional stove, ice box instead of refrigerator Would still have the complexity of pressurized water and hot water heater that I would just as soon do without Like the refrigerator, something more complicated that inevitably will break and need repaired)

Then I sadly snap back to reality... who am I kidding? Given my work/travel schedule would I really be able to use it anymore than Persephone, and can I honestly justify tying up more capital for something that I am the only one in the family who would use and enjoyment out (Which leads to a separate thread- how does one entice, cajole, or otherwise shanghai a wonderful, but extremely pragmatic non sailing spousal unit into recognizing the inherent advantages of a slightly larger boat)

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 08:15:41

I have a really good plan to move up to a bigger boat:

A friend of mine's daughter may marry a billionaire.

If that happens, then my friend may get a reverse-wedding gift of a beautiful, big, new sailboat.

If that happens, then I'm going to ask him to put me in his will.

If that happens, and if I outlive my old friend, then in the dim future, I could sail on my own fantabulous yacht.

If that happens, you're all invited, of course!!!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3468 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 09:31:16

John,

I'll sail with you even if it is on your Cat 25 !

I'll be in touch soon ..probably after Columbus Day. I'm off to Florida that weekend plus 2 days.

Mark,

Great 1st paragraph ! You had me hooked...until I got depressed reading your last paragraph - reality check

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 10:28:48

Jeez... I thought this was the thread we had every year after the boats were covered and the snow was falling... Is it that time of year already??

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1787 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 10:36:25

Well . . . based on your criteria, including price, and looking at where you sail I would look at an older but maintained Pearson Vanguard (33 ft) Bristol 35 or Catalina 38 (not the 380/375). All are stable, blue water boats, all are the size you are looking for and all will come in on or near budget including doing the always needed upgrades/personalization. Dreaming can be fun!

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 12:38:38

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/12402

Hunter 310 fer $48,000

Not that I would want a boat that big myself. Depends on where you are sailing out of...I don't like the bigger ground tackle..

Ditto with Dave.. don't we do this post in Dec.

Oh well.. just warming up...

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 13:13:32

I'd want:

-a furling main
-a furling headsail
-good head room
-good electronics (Autohelm, radar, GPS plotter)
-shoal keel
-comfortable saloon and berth
-efficient galley (range, stove, refrig, large sink)
-hot and cold pressure water
-ample head with shower
-macerator
-open transom
-wheel
-dodger
-no blisters
-no delams or cracks in the hull or deck
-all lines led aft
-electric windlass
-electric winches
-reliable diesel power with genset

-and a great online forum like this one!

Edited by - on

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 14:44:44

After all the research/reading I've done, I would think a 33 or 34' would be great. Big enough to cruise the world, and managable with costs. Although maybe a 31 or 32'. Long water line too, for stability, and comfort. Decent storage/berth under cockpit would be nice. I'd be looking for things what won't cost an arm and a leg to fix or replace. Seems like some older boats (1960's and 1970's) would fit the bill. Of course, need to make sure they are seaworthy, reliable engine.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 10/02/2009 : 17:31:49

Many of you are making good points, but may be "missing the boat!"

The most important thing about a bigger boat is being able to work on it, because after 12 years with a C25 and moving up to a C34, I knew I'd have to do it myself if I wanted to keep it!

Many of the boats mentioned are impossible to work on. A Bristol type boat has the batteries in a position aft of the engine - impossible for a human to work with. Beneteaus have impossible access because all the wiring and pipes are hidden behind useless and unnecessary panels.

Just like new boats, ask yourself this question when you first get on board: "Where's the engine oil dipstick?" If you can't find it, don't bother looking at the rest of the boat because the oil hasn't been checked regularly enough!

The Catalinas are among the best I've seen for working on yourself. The access is good to fantastic.

Another factor is the helpfulness of the Association websites, like this one. The C34 and C36 sites are superior, the C36 has an email list in addition to their message board; I like the MB the best because everything is right here; your boat your choice.

Singlehanding a C34-sized boat is NOT hard: all you have to learn is the midships spring line if you're in an area where the docks have cleats. If you sail in an area without cleats (rings, wood, etc.) gt a grapnel hook!

The C28 is the most overpriced Catalina ever made, they tried to put a C34 or a C36 inside a 28 foot hull. I would strongly urge you to rethink, because you, like MANY MANY before you, will be horribly disappointed. Sure there are many happy C28 owners, but they may not have had C25 sized boats before (a jump from 22 to 28 is different), may be in restricted waters where larger boats don't fit, etc. In fact, the C28 would be a great "biggest boat on the lake" thing, but for larger water sailing (i.e., Bays and ocean) I don't recommend it compared to the value of #/$ you get with any of the other larger Catalinas.

Know that the C309, C30, C310 and C320 are VERY different boats for different applications. Each was made with a different clientele in mind. The C25 appeals across the board to "good sailing men" and one or two of the larger Catalinas do not: they were made to compete with the dreaded competition (H!).

A C30 is a big C25 (traditional cabin) & simply still not a big enough step up, and many of the older ones just don't have the systems that C34s and C36s have; if you have to add them, double the price. An example? Sure: shower sumps - the C30 drains to the bilge, which you just don't wanna do. You have to buy and install a shower sump and wire & pipe it up. We went through that process. Many of our members have. A newer one would work, though.

So check out the lists of "must haves" included by earlier posters, don't be fooled by age, make a choice based on condition. We bought a 1986 C34 in 1998. We looked ONLY for C34s for over a year. She is now 20+ years old and still going strong, and I'll bet will still be doing so 20 years from now, and I hope to be there with her. A friend has a 1988 C34 and just installed a new engine, although he had well over 5,000 hours on his old one. I have 2,300 hours, and use the boat well over 160 hours a year, about twice what most do.

These are just my opinionated rants, but I've been with "Catalina" since 1983, looked at and sailed scads of other boats, and can't think of a manufacturer, other than Ericson, that makes the boats that match the interest, dedication and positive & sharing approach that you folks here on this board share.

Attitude's got a lot to do with it, and when you get a bigger boat, you learn to become a detective real soon.

If you have no interest in becoming a plumber, electrician, fuel expert, Mr. Toolman, and diesel mechanic, stick with what ya got!

Happy Hunting!

PS Most of Randy's list is on boats you'd be looking at. Be careful, learn systems, get a surveyor (I've got a name for you if ever needed), and don't be overwhelmed with the size: it'll grow on ya!

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 10/02/2009 17:36:19

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2009 : 10:46:29

Ok, so I'll ask, are the bigger Catalina's considered Blue Water rated?

I love my C25, and bought it cause I liked my buddy's C22, but I've assumed if I were to get a blue water boat (if that ever happens one day), would have to go with something other than a Catalina. I have nothing against Catalina, but it appears they aren't considered 'blue water'. I've seen this guide referenced a few times, and Catalina isn't even on the list (scroll down to the bottom: http://www.mahina.com/cruise.html) Anyone have any feed back on this? I looked at the C34 real quick online, tankage seems adequate. Are the bigger Catalina's not sturdy enough??

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5904 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2009 : 12:03:43

There's no clear answer to that question. European boats are built to their own set of standards that are different from those standards that are adhered to by US builders. Europeans and others say the US standards are inadequate, but US builders obviously disagree. Thus, there is a worldwide difference of opinions, and there is no universally accepted standard.

Catalina used to claim, on it's website, that every Catalina 30 feet or larger was built to the highest US standard for oceangoing yachts. I just looked and don't see that claim currently being made, but that doesn't necessarily mean Catalina has lowered their standards.

Moreover, who really knows whether the US and European standards are valid, or whether they are merely marketing tools for the industry? To my way of thinking, Mahina simply represents another man's opinion.

Regardless of anyone's opinion, the fact is that many Catalinas have made many successful bluewater passages, and I have never heard of one breaking up or suffering a major structural failure.

Whether you're buying new or used, I would certainly consider it a minimum requirement that any boat meet either the European standards or the US standards, but I wouldn't rely on either standard alone. I think the best approach is to educate yourself about the qualities that should be found in a bluewater boat. I would look at each boat, to see for myself how it was put together. Some boats are so well designed and solidly built that it jumps out at you upon inspection. I would consult the opinions of the many authorities on the subject, and the many books on seaworthy yachts, and then I would look for the best boat I could find that meets my needs at a price I can afford.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/05/2009 12:10:33

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2009 : 16:26:06

If your budget is really 50K, then that restricts you pretty severely in the 30 -35 foot range. C30's are in that range, but C310s, 320s, 34s, 350s and 36s largely aren't.

Pearsons are generally considered well built and there are many in the 30 - 35 foot range under 50K. Hunters are there if you like Hunters. I don't.

I'd recommend you go to yachtworld.com and, like me, spend hours and hours scanning "boat porn." That will help you know what's out there at what price. When you find something interesting, do your research, including looking at the real thing.

Generally, I believe you should buy the smallest boat (or house, or car, or whatever) that meets your realistic needs. That's the opposite of the philosophy that got us in the economic mess we're in, but I've always been perverse.

Edited by - Even Chance on 10/05/2009 16:29:03

HeelinPatrick
Navigator

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USA
102 Posts

Response Posted - 10/05/2009 : 16:58:26

I guess too you get what you pay for, price tag should say alot about what you getting, and surfing boat porn (great term by the way) will show you that.

I've read Pearsons for example are fine boats, however for the hard core blue water passage maker, they are light on tankage, i.e. you would have to have lots of gerry cans of water and fuel. Also, there is the general trade off of speed vs. stability (ability to weather a storm). Pearsons are quicker boats (fin keel, rather than full length keel, and flatter hull). I kinda pictured the same for Catalinas. Towards the other end of the spectrum is the Westsail 32, built like a brick sh1t house (weighs 20,000 lbs).

I'm kinda surprised there are actual standards, I figured design was based on experience, rather than an actual standard. It seems with the true blue water cruisers, quality play an important part, two boats could meet the same standard, but one holds up a lot better.

I try to buy for what I might use it for, such that I don't buy something, and need to sell and buy something else later on. In other words, it would nice to more blue water worthy than I would plan to use it. I wish I had the problem of trying to decide right now :)

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1787 Posts

Response Posted - 10/06/2009 : 09:01:29

What is interesting is how relatively few "blue water" sailboats are in production today vs, say, 20 years ago. In the early days most manufactures, such as Pearson, Bristol, Ryder, Cape Dory, -- even Hunter -- designed boats for coastal and offshore work. As costs went up, companies went under and market research started saying that most people never venture offshore, the number of manufacturers whose boats were designed for everything seems to have evaporated. I know a few people who have the same idea -- transition from club racing/coastal to serious offshore cruising -- and in each case they are surprised to find how few options there are. One friend has said the most cost effective is to find a good older boat and have it professionally refurbished. Based on my experience I am not sure I agree, but considering how few 30-40 foot blue water boats are currently manufactured and their relative cost, he might be right. Finally, all life is a compromise. All summer I miss having a diesel auxiliary engine but all winter I am glad to have the Tohatsu. Same is the case for tankage, fin vs full keel, etc, etc. I think that is why searching for the "next boat" usually takes so long; it's determining what compromises are worth making, which are not, and fitting it all into the never large enough budget. As your search continues keep us up on what you find and your decision tree!

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