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Leon Sisson and refinishing iron swing keel

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skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/26/2009 : 15:26:00

Is Leon Sisson still on this forum? I've been searching the past posts on working with the swing keel and very many of them refer to a process that he has spoken on. Unfortunately, most of the pictures on the forum posts from the past do not work. I suspect the picture links no longer apply.
If you, Leon, or anyone for that matter who has knowledge on working with or removing the swing keel can point to a previous post or has details with pictures I would appreciate it. I'm sure I will be posting more about this project in the near future.
Essentially, I pulled the boat and power washed the hull. The swing keel is in pretty bad shape and I think I need to do some work on it. More than just painting.
Thanks in advance.

Steve Krenz
`Elan
1978 SR/SK #482
Santa Fe, New Mexico

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/26/2009 : 17:52:52

You can find Leon on the members list - his most recent post was on 2-Oct-09. Whether you have a trailer or not is a major factor in the project. I made braces out of 2x4s and clamped them to the trailer frame. Lowered the keel onto the trailer, had the boat lifted and placed temporarily on boat stands. Took keel (while secured to trailer) to a commercial sand blasting company. Use extreme caution when disconnecting, moving the keel.

Edited by - OJ on 10/26/2009 18:22:35

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 07:16:55

Anything Leon did was always done right, "Mil spec" if you will. It is too bad any of his advice has become lost. The 22s made a cd of their best tips, Leon could fill one himself.
A friend of mine borrowed a fin keel trailer and was able to use the "all thread" method to drop and work on his keel with the boat still on the trailer. OJ is right, this is a dangerous process regardless of the plan, 1500 lb of cast iron can change your life.

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 07:51:29

Frank,
Your picture is worth a thousand words.

My basic problem is this. I live in the desert - sail my boat on an inland lake. So I do not have access to boat lifts typically available to people that live on the coasts. I essentially have my swing keel trailer and me. I think I understand the method for dropping the swing keel using this threaded rod method from looking at Frank's picture. I believe I could handle that. The bigger problem as I see it is raising up the boat from the dropped keel. I can see all sorts of reasons why it would be a good idea to sort of keep the two components, the keel and the boat, in relative position to each other. Since moving 1500 pounds even laterally would be very difficult.

Frank, in your picture it looks like you raised up the whole boat above your trailer. Is that correct? If so, how did you do this?

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 09:55:51

It is a borrowed fin keel trailer, that makes for the room underneath. If you have access to a welder, he could install long screw supports under your pads/bunks, like house jacks, lots of trailers have them for adjustments.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 10:19:03

I lowered/raised my C25 swing keel with a hydraulic car jack (not a bottle jack) that has 4 wheels or casters. i.e., something wide and stable that won't flip on its side. If you're going through the effort to lower the keel - you might investigate a company that has a portable blasting unit. Remember, metal starts to oxidize the moment you expose it to the air. Sand blasting also creates a lot of dust and leaves residual blasting material

!

Whoops! I failed to mention that I cut the keel "tray" off my Trail-Rite trailer. The only place the keel ever touched the trailer was at the very aft end - so I left about 3" inches of the tray which had plywood as a cushion.

Edited by - OJ on 10/27/2009 10:45:17

John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 10:29:56

If you can't raise the boat, lower the trailer.

It appears that there is only a few inches of relief given in Frank's photo. Maybe you could rent/borrow/acquire some boat jacks. Barring that, maybe build some kind of cradle/frame out of sufficiently strong lumber. Brace the boat at its current height and then, simply deflate the tires. Boat stays up, trailer drops out from underneath.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 11:03:06

...about 12 inches, the hanger assembly sits flush in the hull, note how far down it is in the photo.

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 11:22:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 If you can't raise the boat, lower the trailer.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is a good idea (shows just how many smart people contribute to this forum) But I don't think this will give me the space requirement I need. At best, I think deflating the tires would give me 2-3". I think I'm looking for more like 12"+.

Somewhere in a former post I remember reading about jacking up and then supporting the boat but I can't find the post. How would one go about jacking up a boat like this on the trailer? Building a crib is a related issue but sort of depends upon how you go about raising her.

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 11:25:42

Frank,
Another question. Suppose you would want to remove the keel to take it to a sand blaster as most of the forum discussions on this topic of keel repair recommend. How would you get this monster out from under the boat? More and more this is looking like the processes needed to build a pyramid.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 11:33:20

I've never done it but I think you could raise the hull with boat jack stands . . . a few turns a a time. Stands are chained together to prevent slipping of course.
You sound pretty determined about this project. A little hindsight - after all the effort I put into mine - I scraped bottom and had rust on the keel tail the following fall. After that, I used a grinder on the rust spots and performed touch ups.

Edited by - OJ on 10/27/2009 11:35:34

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 11:41:14

Someone in town has a hoist with slings. I have had a boat hang for days from a lift. Welders know things, like who has a hoist in town. You could build a support frame, undo the hanger and simply lift the boat off and drive the trailer to who can blast it for you. I had a soda blaster do my keel in the first photo, only took an hour, but I did not try to fair it other than a little micro balloon epoxy in a few places. If you have never cruised my photos you will find a lot of things at my gallery.
http://gallery.mac.com/fhopper#gallery

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 12:19:03

Thanks Frank. Nice pictures. The picture of your finished bottom, the boat's that is

, is what I am shooting for.
I suppose I should post some pics to show what I am up against. I am determined to do the process because I think the keel is way past "touch ups". And I need to redo the anti-fouling paint on the hull anyways. And I have never checked the pivot attachment since the PO. And....

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JimB517
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 13:41:24

Trailer the boat to Mission Bay, we'll take it to the boatyard next door. They will lift it and put it on stands in the yard (lift $100) lay days in the yard $75/day. Do your own work or have them blast it and paint it for probably $1000.

Think about it you are going to spend far more than $1000 and take a lot of risk doing what you are planning.

When its done you can go sailing here in San Diego for a week.

I'll help you.

Edited by - on

32chevcab
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 19:13:28

I removed my swing keel last year. I used the threaded rods to lower the keel but I raised the roller trailer with a jack and shored up the trailer with timbers. I removed the trailer axles and the rear roller set to allow the keel to be removed to the rear. I built a swing set out of two-bys to hold the rear of the boat. I made a flat wheeled dolly to hold the keel with uprights to maintain the position of the keel. I bought a sling strap and I had two chain hoists to attached to the swing set. I encountered no problems with the whole procedure.
'86 25 sktr

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 20:18:50

Too bad that there's not a way to weigh the keel. I'd guess that the actual loss of iron is probably only a few pounds at the most. That kind of loss won't create a safety issue. Off of a 1500 pound keel, why bother? I know, it's not seamanlike but really, who looks at the keel? I guess the roughness of the keel might effect boat speed a little so, if your racing it might be an issue -- but a small one. If that's the concern, you could treat the keel with some kind of rust killer and fair it some kind of fairing compound. I think Jim's right. Is the risk to safety of jury rigging some kind of lifting device worth the reward?

Is this much ado about nothing????

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 20:59:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Too bad that there's not a way to weigh the keel. I'd guess that the actual loss of iron is probably only a few pounds at the most. That kind of loss won't create a safety issue. Off of a 1500 pound keel, why bother? I know, it's not seamanlike but really, who looks at the keel? I guess the roughness of the keel might effect boat speed a little so, if your racing it might be an issue -- but a small one. If that's the concern, you could treat the keel with some kind of rust killer and fair it some kind of fairing compound. I think Jim's right. Is the risk to safety of jury rigging some kind of lifting device worth the reward?

Is this much ado about nothing????
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He still needs to check the pivot assembly so he might as well clean up the keel.

I used three hydraulic engine hoists to lift my 21' Sea Ray off the trailer. One at the bow eye and one at each tie down eye at the rear. You'd have to figure out how to attach the hoists at the rear of our 25's since we don't have the tie down eyes.

Another option. Most boat dealerships have some type of hoist so they can set new boats on the trailer or hang outboards on the transom. Maybe you could call around and find one that would be willing to lift your boat up long enough to remove the keel.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/27/2009 21:00:19

OJ
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Response Posted - 10/27/2009 : 23:59:45

So Steve, have we overwhelmed you with our collective energies yet?

And where the heck is Leon?

Frank, you are certainly passionate about boats! Enjoyed your photo gallery very much - thanks for sharing. I also had a Tanzer 16 on my way up. Is that a Catalina 25 laying on its side (in the big blow) in the photo gallery?

Edited by - OJ on 10/28/2009 00:04:05

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Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 08:18:11

Thanks OJ, I loved my Tanzer.
...if you mean this one, it looks like an IOR 1/4 toner to me, notice the pinched stern. As a genre I think they spent a lot of time like that!
and I agree, where the heck is Leon!

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:45:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 So Steve, have we overwhelmed you with our collective energies yet?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, not yet. Lots of good ideas. It seems to me that there are two issues here. One is lowering and moving around the keel itself. Lowering seems pretty straight forward using Leon's threaded rod process: safe, cheap easy. Moving this chunk of iron out to actually work on it is a whole 'nuther matter.
Second issue is raising the boat up off of the trailer. This may not be as much of an issue as I think since it seems to me that if you can figure out how to raise it, you can always put timbers etc between the existing trailer rollers and the hull for a safe and secure positioning.

Are there certain parts of the hull that should be used to raise against? Certain parts that should NOT be used?

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Thee and Me
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Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 19:13:54

This is the topic I've been waiting for. I need to drop my SK, put in the keel casting and centering spacer retrofit kits, as well as paint the trunk, seal and fair the keel and paint it (I will be mooring in salt water).

I'm looking for more explicit direction on this "threaded rod" process by Leon. Any suggestions?

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 19:57:24

"All thread" is simply threaded rod you buy at the hardware store. Take one bolt out, put in the threaded rod, run a nut all the way up. Repeat until all bolts are out and the keel is still in place. Make sure you have the rod in tight, you do not want it coming out by accident, note the acorn nuts on the bottom that allow you to get the rod tight. You then simply cycle around the rods lowering each nut a couple turns until it is down on your support. Replace parts and reverse.

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:15:40

So how about some more suggestions on lifting the boat? I looked at things more closely this weekend and it appears we are only talking about lifting it maybe 18". I also concluded that removing the keel entirely from under the boat, without access to a boat hoist, is not a good idea. Big issue is keeping this 1500 pound monster from tipping over. Also repositioning it under the boat again when it is finished. I also came to this conclusion when I found that sand blaster companies were available that would come to me and do the keel in place.
So now the only hurdle is lifting the whole boat enough to expose the keel entirely and to allow getting up into the pocket where the keel swings up into to repaint. Lifting points in the stern seem pretty straight forward - the bottom of the skeg. Forward of the keel the bottom of the boat is pretty flat so a beam fitted with some pieces to roughly match the contour of the hull would be just fine. Is this the answer? Slowly lift the stern, lower the keel a little more with the winch, then lift the forward section, then back down the threaded rods and repeat?

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OJ
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Response Posted - 11/09/2009 : 16:15:55

To raise my friends C25, he purchased a house jack and cut it down to a height that would fit under the rear fin and in front of the swing pivot point. Placed a large block of wood (think it was a 4x4) on top of the jack to spread the weight. Jacked up he stern an inch or so - then blocked it. Same process with the bow - then back and forth. The weight of the keel should rest solely on the trailer during this process - so you are not lifting the hull and the keel together. I think you will still need to build braces to keep the keel from falling on its side after you have cleared the keel trunk.

Have you considered acquiring boat jacks? That would be exponentially faster! Check online using "Craiglook"

And again, metal starts oxidizing the same moment you blast it!

**********WORK SAFE!**********

Edited by - OJ on 11/09/2009 16:19:24

Merrick
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Response Posted - 11/10/2009 : 10:15:35

As was mentioned above, you can lift the boat enough on the trailer if you have the screw jack supports. I would still use the screws to lower the keel to keep it lined up. I had to do some work to re-align after the keel leaned to the side a little. However by leaning the keel over I was able to access and clean/ paint the keel trunk. To me it would be worth adding jacks if you expect to redo your bottom regularly. It makes it easier to do yourself. In freshwater might not need to be done that much.

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skrenz
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Response Posted - 11/10/2009 : 12:41:51

Steve,
Where did you get your screw jacks from? Did you need to weld them to the trailer or do any other special modifications?

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