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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/04/2009 : 08:42:03

I read about all kinds of nifty little tricks and additions to "make it easier to sail our boats. And while these mods are generally ingenious and useful I think that too much "ingenious and useful" just throws a wrench in the wheel. OK, how about "a fouled line in the tiller?" [joke] I'm leaving off the adjustable genoa car, the downhaul, the lazy jacks, the 2 line reefer and a host of other mods that have been talked about because IMHO it just makes a mess. Before you know it you've 30 lines running every square inch of your deck. Once again IMHO keep it simple and the boat looks better and there's less crap to break. Give me a Tiller Tamer and/or Auto-Helm so I can leave the cockpit for a few and I'm good! You know the ole saying; TO MUCH OF ANYTHING.....

PS- I do understand that some folks really need some of these systems because of a physical inability etc.

Dave Robbins
PO to*Bamboo*
'89 SR/WK #5877
Daytona Bch., FL

http://bambooc25.weebly.com/

Edited by - on

crcalhoon
Captain

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USA
303 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 09:34:06

I've never had as much fun on another boat as on my first, an early series Pearson Electra sailed out of Stamford, CT Harbor. It had a main sheet and two jib sheets. No traveler, no vang, no adjustable jib cars,or if it did, I don't remember and we didn't know how too use them. The jib was blown out and we couldn't afford to replace it, the only work we ever did was to re-paint the interior from battleship grey to white. Wonderful boat. We didn't know any better and couldn't miss what we didn't even know existed. Had a 3 HP British Seagull engine, but seemed enough to us unless we forgot about the tide. (for those unfamiliar with the Seagull motors, they mixed at a 10:1 ratio, rattled snapped and popped and blew clouds of smoke and, Oh Yeah, had a live axle sort of thing. No reverse, no neutral. When you started it you needed to be pointing in the direction you wanted to go. This entailed backing about 3500 pounds of sailboat out by hand and hanging onto a piling while you got the motor started. If you were real lucky, you could start it in the slip and back it out by hand and shove, but that could be a little dicey.)
I still have a different 3 HP Seagull hanging from a rafter in my garage. It hasn't been started in 20 years, but I'll bet that with a good cleaning and a new plug and three pulls. . . Oh yeah, no recoil start either. Wind it up and yank. Were those the "good old days?"
The old joke was that the Seagull would push your vessel at one knot or it would push the Queen Mary at one knot, it couldn't tell the difference and didn't care.

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 10:18:22

Indiscipline has 19 lines led to the cockpit.

To each his own.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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3466 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 10:26:11

There are all different types out there. Many just use their stock boat as is with little or no mods. There are those sailors out there that will tweak their boats for sport or for pleasure and perhaps it is this tweaking that is sort of a hobby all in itself besides the sailing. When you read postings and responses on a bulletin board like this one., it would seem that everyone is doing all sorts of running rigging and sailing type mods but each individual may be doing far less on their boat. I find that reading all the responses can sometimes be a bit disturbing since there always seems like another thing that you must do. But overall, the wealth of info shared is fantastic since there could be some small improvements that just make a big difference - At least to the individual desiring the change.

One mod I made sort of off the boat was based on responses I received to my posting regarding "Fender Management". Seems like a non-issue and granted it's not a biggy but I use to stuff my Tayler fenders wedged in between the mid-stays and the cabin side. However, as i would sail, sometimes those fenders would get loose or a jib line would get tangled on them. I asked what others do with their fenders and the response received from some surprised me and got me into making a mod. Can't remember the exact words but they indicated that I should get the fenders off the boat altogether and tie them to the finger slip. I never thought about that. So, at first I tried using a line and stringing it between the figer slip cleats which were far apart. But the line stretched just after a day or two. So, I then bought cable and a turnbuckle and looped it around the cleats and attached the fenders with short lines (~ < 1 foot) hanging from the cable. I tightened the cable with the turnbuckle and put a protective sleeve aropund the turnbuckle. I know...this mod also seems like a lot of work and expense for fenders that could be just tucked away. But I cleaned up the boat - No fenders to deal with when getting ready to sail or coming back to my slip. It's a smll time saver with one less thing to do and lines do not get tangled on the fenders.

But what it comes down to is that I like to work on the boat as sort of a hobby. I have not done much mods to running rigging or adding new lines except for a boom vang which the PO had in a storage compartment and never installed the fitting for the boom attachment. The other mods are on my website - fans, charger, new switch panel, solar panel, new outboard bracket, LED Anchor light and rewiring, bunk extension...and other things I did nothave to do and would still enjoy the sailing. Right now...not doing much because I moved onto another hobby area for the next month or so more - Setting up a marine tank for saltwater fish and corals. The time and expense of the mods for my exisitng tank and what addl I have added....is pretty involved as well. I guees it's whatever turns you on. Look at it this way, there are some out there that have no interests, hobbies, etc. I think we are all overall healthier for the enjoyment of the hobbies or sport we participate in.

Edited by - OLarryR on 11/04/2009 10:29:19

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 12:46:32

Jim wrote:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Indiscipline has 19 lines led to the cockpit <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hahahaha, I would have guessed Jim, but you do a whole different kind of sailing than I do (of which I am envious), and the way you have your boat set up is totally understandable. And yes, for the racer in general I can see having a much busier boat.
I also want to make clear that I appreciate our resident "mad sailing scientists" that take this thing so to heart and improve/invent things that most of us don't think of. It helps increase my overall knowledge of boat upkeep....... I'm just saying

..............................

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 13:54:41

ok jim I'm only coming up with 10 or 11 lines, but I don't know what you might have for spinnaker, how about explain 19 lines?

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 14:04:59

I'll do it as an exercise in memory. Note, not all the lines are run all the time - only on race day. They are color coded and labeled !

port clutch:
jib halyard
outhaul
cunningham
spin halyard
foreguy

Starboard clutch:
main halyard
reef
vang
pole lift
asym tack line

cockpit

port :
jib sheet
spin sheet
traveller

starboard :
jib sheet
spin sheet
traveller

centered:
mainsheet
topping lift
backstay adjuster

That's 19

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 14:06:27

I also have autopilot, GPS/chartplotter, fish finder and a hand held VHF, lifesling, and MOB pole in the cockpit.

Edited by - JimB517 on 11/04/2009 14:08:20

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 14:48:03

I agree with you, Dave. My C25 was rigged mostly factory stock, and it served my needs perfectly. All I added was a mainsail topping lift, a couple of extra cleats, and a tiller tamer. No lines were led to the cockpit, and the headsails were hanked on.

That being said, if I used my boat the way Jim uses his, I would have led a lot of lines to the cockpit, and probably would have wanted roller furling. To a large extent, the way you rig your boat is dictated by the way you use it. By leading the lines to the cockpit, Jim can raise and lower sails in a blow without leaving the relative safety of the cockpit. That's important to a guy who does a lot of distance sailing, but it's not very important to a guy who sails mostly on a small inland lake.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 17:37:29

Just remember that some lines are to help control the boat when the winds pipe up, they are mistakenly called racing mods but are more correctly safety mods. (Down hauls, out hauls, etc.) The more you can depower your boat the better. (Most of what you noted are fluff.)

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 17:54:33

I left the lines as they were set up by the PO and DPO. Main halyard, jib furler and jib sheets run into the cockpit. I made a tiller tamer with a piece of string.

I guess I could use a main downhaul (I usually only have to point into the wind, loose the halyard and it will drop on its own), and a way to reef the main without having to get up on the cabin top.

Lazy jacks would be nice, but not essential. I use a velcro strap to bind the main after I drop it. I can handle it from the open cabin top.

I don't have a boom vang, and I rarely use the Cunningham.

Am I missing something?

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 20:14:43

Bruce, I think you would find a boom vang helpful. I consider it a primary mainsail control. When you have the boom off to the side of the boat (reach, run) the vang will keep the boom down and allow better sail shape.

Our C22 had a lot of lines and we ended up not using them all. We now have just the basics on our C250:

main halyard
main sheet
jib sheets
furler line
2 lines for reefing
boom vang

For a cruiser I think this is all we need and these lines provide good sail trim ability.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 21:26:48

I've done a lot of mods on SL, most of which I'm glad I've done. Probably the most useful was the hard link, which sadly I no longer have with my "new" Tohatsu. I can't think of one off hand that I regret. We did a lot of work in our first year, less the second year, and I've got a sizable list for this winter.

Another useful one, at least for peace of mind was the 2000 GPH bilge pump. It's never been used and I hope it never is, but it's there just in case.

Not sure I'd consider replacing my VHF, antenna & coax as a mod, but I feel much better knowing that I have all good hardware where our old VHF was more irritating than useful, and the antenna was not quite toast.

As far as lines, I've added a 2nd reef line, as well as a jib dowsing line, so we have three halyards, jib, main, & spinnaker, main sheet & jib sheets, outhaul, and vang, so that's 11 lines into the cockpit or so?

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2009 : 22:20:51

Jim,

Do you have any pictures of the arrangement at the clutches on the cabin top. I need to get this worked out for bringing the lines you mentioned aft.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2009 : 08:42:44

As far as running rigging goes, the only lines I have running to the cabintop are the topping lift, cunningham, and outhaul. I did have my main halyard ran to the cabintop as well, but I abandoned that and went back to the mast with it since it didn't fit well into my sailing routine.

A big part of sailing for me is the aesthetics and I look at sailboats as works of art. In my office at work, I have framed paintings/prints of sailboats at sea and anchored in harbors. The boats in the prints are classic looking with long overhangs, wineglass transoms, and from a time when the boats were made of wood and the men were made of steel. Even though my boat only has token amounts of teak, every time I walk up to it, the brightwork brings a smile to my face. My boat is very stock looking, still has the original horn cleats on the coamings, and rather uncluttered. I'm not a big fan of those boats that have all sorts of gadgets and widgets screwed down on every inch of fiberglass and miles of lines fouling the decks.

A sailing friend of mine, an old salt from Hungary with a preference very similar to mine, sails literally every day on his very originally equipped CD25D, hanking on headsails and hoisting/reefing at the mast. In the past year or so, he's been actively seeking a larger boat in the Pacific Seacraft/Island Packet genre. Anyway, he made an appointment to look at an Island Packet and when he arrived at the boat, he said it had so much "added stuff" (I cleaned up his original phrasing) screwed and bolted everywhere that he didn't even bother taking a tour of the inside and simply walked away. This goes to illustrate that someone's "upgrade/mod/Rube Goldberg device" is someone else's...er..."added stuff".

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2009 : 09:49:59

I'll try to post some photos of the deck layout. I have a 3 line clutch and 2 jamb cleats on each side of the deck.

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2009 : 13:20:35

As has already been aluded to there are two reasons for adding equipment to a boat; safety/ease of opertion controls and racing controls, or both. Anyone who spends the dollars it takes to add extra equipment for no other reason than eye-wash probably spends more time at the dock than sailing anyway.

I went from racing heavily - three days a week in the summer months and occasional short cruises & day sailing, to longer cruises and less racing single handed, to cruising single handed and no racing. Initially I addded equipment to make my boat go faster, safely, in all wind conditions. Cunningham, loose footed main, full battens, rigid boom vang, are examples. These are also handy when cruising as well, particularly the sail reducing mods, when the wind pipes up on Lake Superior. A roller furler, second reef for the main, electronic navigation stuff, cruising spinaker, anchor roller, are cruising additions which have come in handy over the years.

I have now owned my boat for 21 years. Frankly I've exhausted the mods I need for cruising and I no longer race. Now I'm in the mood to tinker with accommodations and comfort - removing the head sink and replacing it with a wet locker is one idea I've toyed with. Transverse sleeping under the cockpit is another. Possibly a sprit for my asym spinnaker is another.

In the end I all my mods were situational to fit the way I've sailed at a particular time over the years. I guess I'm so used to adding something on the boat every spring that I can't quite stop.

The only mod I ever regretted was buying a 150 genny. After sailing it for a season I had it cut down to a 135.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2009 : 16:33:13

Randy
I have a boom vang on my 16 ft daysailor Voyager, but I don't need it sailing downwind in Passage.

Instead of holding down the boom with a vang, I hook the mainsheet under the stern pulpit end and snap on the lifeline. This acts as a "preventer" to prevent accidental gybes and at the same time, it pulls the boom down to maintain a flat sail shape. Works great!

Edited by - on

Chris Z
Captain

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452 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2009 : 04:48:14

Bruce,

The only issue Is that if you experience a major wind shift when sailing you could be caught with you main being backwinded in a blow. Also, keep in mind that the lifelines are not designed to take any major loads from the sails.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2009 : 09:42:58

With the rather limited traveller on the C25, when sailing upwind, I start using the vang to control leech tension when the traveller has reached the leeward limit. In moderate to heavy air, vang use is essential and not just for sailing downwind.

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2009 : 10:18:23

OK Jim -- what's a foreguy?

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 16:32:41

It seems to me that a vang would interfere with the poptop.
(Of course, the vang would not be needed while at anchor or in the slip when you'd be using the poptop.)

By the way, what are the attachment points for a vang?

Edited by - Voyager on 11/07/2009 16:33:54

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 16:47:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">OK Jim -- what's a foreguy?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's a Wikipedia article on [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_%28sailing%29"]guys[/url].

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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1776 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 17:02:49

Having started my sailing career on spartan Alberg boats -- the Corinthian and Electra -- I agree that less can very much be more. Few lines, no fancy gear and simple sailing that seemed like a joy and my feeble mind could keep straight. Then progression into fin-keel sailing. I try to keep my 25 simple but while I never thought I would need or appreciate a boomvang, the 25 seems to really need it. Equally I look at the short traveler and at times wish I had the wide ones that the earlier boats had. My "sail like you stole it" son keeps telling me about how much gear we do not have and need. While he does get maximum speed and performance and seems to only enjoy sailing at a 25+ degree heel, I have just as much fun bobbing around. So, I guess it really depends on the intent of your sailing, your experience and your appetite to buy it all.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/07/2009 : 20:27:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 It seems to me that a vang would interfere with the poptop.
(Of course, the vang would not be needed while at anchor or in the slip when you'd be using the poptop.)

By the way, what are the attachment points for a vang?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It shouldn't be in the way. The vang attaches at the base of the mast and about 1/3 of the way aft on the boom.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2009 : 21:03:15

Randy
Do you have a photo of the vang placement and how you lead the line into the cockpit?

Edited by - on

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