Association Forum - Removing the outer shrouds

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

Removing the outer shrouds

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Member Avatar

USA
5377 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/11/2009 : 18:59:27

Today I was at the boat in the yard checking on a few things, and just hanging out, and I noticed that one of my neighbors had a similar shroud arrangement as I:

A pair of shrouds (port and starboard) that reached up to the top of the mast and two pair (2 port and 2 starboard) attached just under the spreaders.

When he covered his boat, he removed the pins holding the spreader stays so they'd be out of the way, and then he placed one tarp aft of the shrouds, and one tarp forward of the shrouds. The 2 remaining shrouds, along with the backstay and forestay are the only things holding up his mast.

As a result, he did not have to make any cuts in his tarps at all.

My question is, if the boat is stored over the winter with mast up, do you really need the spreader stays to keep the mast up?

Or should I ask the yard crew to ask the guy to replace his spreader stays?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/11/2009 : 21:20:40

If all you are going to do is hold the mast up, the forestay, backstay and "upper" shrouds are all you really need. It shouldn't hurt anything to disconnect the forward and aft "lower" shrouds. Those shrouds are needed only when you are sailing and have the mast under load from the sails.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2009 : 06:59:30

I'm not clear on your term "spreader stays"... Do you mean the "upper shrouds" that go on the ends of the spreaders, or the "lower shrouds" that terminate at the spreader bases?

I wouldn't leave the mast up without all of them in place, but I loosened the uppers a little (not to the point of going slack) and tightened the lowers (compared to my normal sailing tune--counting and recording the number of turns). My reason was that wind can cause the mast to "pump"--harmonically bending one way and then the other in a rhythm that can build to the point that it shakes the whole boat and can do damage to the rig. I've felt it on a boat when the wind was really piping and heard it in boatyards in the winter. One big boat anchored near us was pumping all night--the major sound was the wires loudly slapping the inside of the mast at the rate of about two "shlings" a second.

Tension on the upper shrouds (plus fore- and back-stays) that in effect tries to bend the mast is the basic cause; moderate and equal tension on all lowers, I believe, helps to prevent it.

But for a more expert opinion, I'll suggest you ask the rigger at your yard.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/12/2009 07:07:55

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2009 : 07:30:45

If your boat will be stored in an exposed location, then all the stays should remain attached, but, if your boat will be well-sheltered from the wind, such as surrounded by trees or in a depression in the land, such as a vale, then I see no reason why the lowers can't be disconnected. Presently, there's a nor'easter running along the east coast, with 55-60 kt winds, and, if your lowers are disconnected and your mast is exposed to the full force of those winds, I can see the mast breaking in the middle. The purpose of the lower stays is to hold the mast in column. In their absence, a strong crosswind can blow it out of column, and break the mast. When in doubt, I'd leave them attached and find another way to cover the boat.

Edited by - on

SailCO26
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
457 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2009 : 13:04:00

I'm struggling with this.

I think we agree on "pumping" being a cyclic movement of the mid-portion of the mast, not the entire stick moving around.

Yes, the lowers are used to keep the mast in column (side-side) and set/limit pre-bend (fore-aft). But with no loading I just can't see the lowers being required to hold the stick up, even in high winds. It might pump some IF the uppers and/or backstay were kept taught, but I think that as long as most of the tension has been removed from the uppers/stays then the wind pressure would be relieved by some slight mast movement to the extent of the windward shroud/stay long before it started pumping. Without some tension somehwere to initiate a bend in the mast, it just can't/won't pump.

If the wind ever got to the point where not having the lowers attached/tensioned could actually blow out the mast and break it mid-stick - I suspect there's not going to be much boat left to worry about what it might or might not still be attached to!

There are those who won't advocate storing a boat on the hard with the stick up AT ALL, as the wind pressure on the stick wont be relieved by heel as in the water, and all the pressure is taken by the stay/shroud and attachments. True, but is it really an issue? I see (and have had) boats stored stick-up all the time in heavy-weather prone areas, and have yet to see/hear of a stick coming down - and if it did, then I suspect the same result would occur the first sail in over 10-12k on the water too...

That said, when I stored my CP26 with the stick up I left the lowers attached - but only because there was no reason for me to remove them. Had I a reason, I wouldn't have been too concerned about it - they're just not ever loaded up enough to be a requirement.

If you've a strong enough desire to store them removed, I say do so - but take everything said here by others and myself and evaluate options/risk for yourself.

Jim

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2009 : 14:08:38

I agree with Jim. If all of this were true then there would be a lot of flag poles that don't have any support from wires and have flags at the top applying pressure to them laying on the ground in pieces after every storm.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/12/2009 : 19:18:12

I guess I will leave them alone. When I saw the other boat with the lowers removed and the uppers in place, I wasn't thinking about the mid-span support.

I will keep an eye on that guy's boat to see how it will survive the current nor'easter. This year, I'm in a vale, down in a gully, so I should be protected from the wind. Last year, I was totally exposed.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2009 : 04:00:28

Our winter storage is in a small ravine along the edge so we are quite sheltered from most winds. One of our neighboring boats (owner lives ~5 hrs from here)is one of only a very few who remove their mast. Most overwinter with the mast up and a fair percentage do so with the lower shrouds removed. We've stored Great Escape over the past 5 yrs with them removed. It has worked well for us although I would be hesitant in a more exposed setting.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2009 : 15:53:56

Here's some info to clear up the misconceptions on mast pumping. Ours pumps so when it does I go "Wow, it's now blowing 11 - 13 knots!"

http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq-mast-pumping.html

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2009 : 07:18:50

To use the tarp setup like your neighbors, remove one set of the lower shrouds (forward or aft) then move the remaining set of lowers to the other hole on the upper shroud chainplate.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2009 : 09:34:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stu Jackson C34
 Here's some info to clear up the misconceptions on mast pumping...
http://www.c34.org/faq-pages/faq-mast-pumping.html<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I had heard the same thing, and wrapped my halyards as described, although just for winter storage. I have no idea whether it helped, but I felt better. Pumping can be more than a little worrisome, and it can't be good for the rig.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2009 : 11:58:12

what an informative article..

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5377 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2009 : 16:31:18

So I was at the boat yesterday and the wind was ripping along at 25-30 kts. From time to time, I felt the entire boat shudder up on the jack stands, so after the third time, I got out ASAP.

I went around to study the supports holding the boat up in the yard. The keel is firmly seated on a pair of 6x6 wooden blocks. I have a pair of jackstands chained together in the aft, a pair about the keel, another pair chained together up forward and a single stand holding the bottom of the vee section of the bow. Each of the stands have wooden pads between the stand and the hull.

I checked the jackstands and one of the rear pair was loose, one of the forward stands on the other side of the boat was loose, and one of the stands next to the keel was loose. Out of seven, three had play in them. No wonder things got shaky.

I called the yard boss and asked him to come by to check it. He tightened up all the stands and then explained that within the first week or so, the stands can get loose from vibrations from the wind. Once he tightened them up, the boat was rock solid.

At this point, I plan to check them every time I visit the boat. While I have insurance, I would really hate to see the boat fall off the stands. Could be very very messy.....

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2009 : 17:09:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 I agree with Jim. If all of this were true then there would be a lot of flag poles that don't have any support from wires and have flags at the top applying pressure to them laying on the ground in pieces after every storm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Flag poles have a round cross section and are tapered top to bottom (to flex on the upper 1/3rd where the flag is flown) and have much thicker walls than the mast of a C-25. I feel that stresses and cumulitive wear on the mast fittings,stays,spreaders,and fiberglass are increased when the mast is left up on the hard. It's like the warning on the Viagra commercials "Contact your doctor if you experience an erection lasting more than....

Edited by - on

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.