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Mechan-Nick
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/01/2010 : 07:02:17

Hello All,

I am a new member and have tried to post this twice before however, I had lost it by trying to delete a line. I hope it did not post multiple times, my apologies in advance!

We are novice sailors(4 seasons) and currently own a great Catalina 22. However, our family is expanding with additions of son in law's & boy friends.

We live in New York's Hudson valley but our home port & sailing area is Jamestown Rhode Island. From the posts and members, I am sure there are many folks who sail these waters.

I have been told by some 'Old Salt' types that the 25 maybe a better choice for the waters we sail? However, the 250's seems to be a bit more modern and with more amenities which my wife and daughters like.

Additionally, my wife believes that newer is always better? Our Cat-22 is an 83. We are going to look at what appears to be a nice later model 25 this weekend. I believe it is an 89, most of the 25's I have seen for sale are of the early 80's vintage.

Any help, advice, guidance or pros & cons would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Nick

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 07:21:01

Welcome Nick,

Have you seen both models up close? They are quite different.

If you have a lead on a 1989 C25 you might want to keep close tabs on it as the 89 & 90 models are considered cream of the crop (i.e., improved deck design and lead wing keel) and don't come on the market too often as only about 200 were built.

You'll get a lot of feedback on this topic for sure!

Good luck with your search and keep us posted on your progress.

Edited by - OJ on 03/01/2010 09:41:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 07:42:08

Hi Nick... Read [url="http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=16783"]this[/url]. Note that it's multiple "pages" in length. Then enjoy the quest!

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/01/2010 07:51:07

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 09:41:21

The thread Dave referenced really does discuss our boats at great length and I agree that you should read it.

I faced the same question when I bought my 250 a couple of years ago. Frankly, I bought the 250 because I want to go sailing, not go to the marina and do maintenance. It's not that the 25's are falling apart, they are not! But, as Dave pointed out in the other thread, older boats will require more maintenance. The youngest C25 is 20 years old. As OJ pointed out, the '89-'90 boats are widely considered Catalina's best in this model. But still, they are 20 years old.

Another consideration is keel type. There are a lot of swing keels in the C25. The maintenance required on the swinger eliminated that choice from my selection. Since I was never planning to be a "trailer sailor" or beach my boat, the advantages of the C250 water ballast weren't really advantages for me. Given the distance between the Hudson valley and the Rhode Island coast, the water ballast may be a better choice since it will allow you more options for trailering your boat to other venues. It's been said that the water ballast acts similarly to a full keeled boat in rougher water. I've no experience with that. I'm not very tall, but the wing keel version with its additional headroom is almost stand up head space. I also don't have any maintenance to do on the centerboard. Rarely, cracks in the ballast tank have been reported (Very rarely, actually)

Given the size of your family, (adult sized not kid sized) , be sure to look at a Catalina 30 before you buy anything. It's exponentially larger down below and yes, you can sail it.

Oh, yeah, I prefer a tiller over a wheel in a 25 foot boat.

Read [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21102"]this thread[/url] currently running in our swap meet. Arlyn probably knows more about the C250 than Catalina does.

Welcome to the forum.

Edited by - John Russell on 03/01/2010 09:48:31

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 11:20:07

Welcome, Nick!

The folks here could give you more useful information if you have answers to some of these questions:

Budget?
Newer-and-ready-to-sail or older-and-ready-to-fix-up?
Trailer-sailor or marina-member?
Racing or cruising or both?
Sleeping-room-for-family or day-sailing?
Stay-in-Narragansett-Bay or sail-out-past-Newport?

In my opinion, the C25 is safer due to greater stability under conditions you would find out past Newport along the coast, and with rougher conditions in the Bay.

On the other hand, the enclosed head of the C250 makes sailing with family and friends a civilized experience.

It's a great place to sail! Good luck with your search! The kind of boat to buy should depend on how you plan to use it.

Edited by - JohnP on 03/01/2010 13:32:16

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 14:22:06

I owned a C25 and sailed some friends' C250s. It sounds like the old salts are suggesting that the C25 can handle heavy weather better than the C250. The bottom line is that neither boat is designed for heavy weather. They're both coastal cruisers, and have no business sailing in survival conditions. If you get caught out, however, either of them can stand up to some severe conditions, if you have enough skill to help them through. I don't know any sailor on the Chesapeake Bay who intentionally sails in really severe weather. No matter how big or rugged their boat, they all head for cover when it gets really rough.

That being the case, I wouldn't make my choice based on which boat can handle the roughest weather, because, if you're smart, you won't get caught in it. I'd look for the best deal on the nicest boat, with the most equipment, at the best price. Buy the boat that best suits your family's needs, and you'll almost certainly be happy with it.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
Captain

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USA
299 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 15:21:10

In my opinion my Catalina 250 wing keel will accommodate no more than eight people for an outing of a few hours. If going out for an overnight trip that number drops to four. If racing then two onboard is optimum or three if the wind is strong. The Charleston SC minimum length to compete in their offshore racing events is 30 feet. That to me is a pretty good indication that 25 feet is too small for doing much offshore sailing. From Google maps it looks like your marina location would invite some coastal sailing. So is the Catalina 25 or 250 big enough for you ?

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/01/2010 15:54:23

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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5368 Posts

Response Posted - 03/01/2010 : 21:47:24

I live in CT, so it's a 2 day sail for me to get to the Hudson River. It's also three days for me to sail to Jamestown. Ten days round trip, so trailering is your best option. A swinger will be better suited to your needs, except that there are several maintenance issues to reckon with.
As was mentioned - if you can afford it, a 30 might be a better bet.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 06:42:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 In my opinion my Catalina 250 wing keel will accommodate no more than eight people for an outing of a few hours. If going out for an overnight trip that number drops to four. ... So is the Catalina 25 or 250 big enough for you ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I would never sail my boat with 8 adults on board. The cockpit isn't big enough. The C25 cockpit is smaller. I was out for a couple of hours one afternoon with 4 adults and 4 kids and I thought it too crowded. BTW, I have catbird seats.

Edited by - on

windsong
Captain

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USA
318 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 07:51:31

Here's what a C250 looks like with 3 adults and 4 kids. The catbird seats help, but I'm wishing I had a pontoon boat about now. When the squall in the background hit us, I had to drop the hook and order everyone below decks. Very tight but a fun day, for sure.

Edited by - on

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 08:19:31

Let me throw in my 2 cents worth as a swing keel owner of a few years. I think the maintenance concerns over a swing keel are over hyped a bit. When I bought my boat I took the good advice of many swing keel owners and replaced the swing keel hardware with a kit from CatalinaDirect. It was really simple to do up on the trailer, it took a couple hours start to finish. Having done it once, I could now do it in about half an hour. At the start of each season I just undo a couple hose clamps and check that the turning ball is in good condition, then double check the connection at the keel.

The advantage of the swing keel is not just in beaching the boat - although that IS really handy. When we're out sailing and want to go in to some beach, we just raise the keel (my pre-teen daughter has claimed this task as her own - it's that easy) and nose up on the beach. I am adding an idasailor kickup rudder this year because on shallow beaches the rudder would occasionally ground out first. The other advantages I've found with a swing keel are when we run aground. I give this problem very little thought, because all I have to do is crank up the keel a few turns to free ourselves and sail out of trouble. Also, when trailering to lakes at summer's end you will frequently encounter low water conditions. The swing keel lets you reduce your draft to under 2 feet which opens up many more sailing areas. In low water years, the fixed keel boats usually have to pull out in August, but the swing keel owners enjoy sailing clear into fall.

I realize the swing keel isn't for every condition. However for trailering and exploring inland lakes, it's really, really hard to find better boat.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 08:23:59

Looking at Windsong above... Times have changed... It would seem that C-250 hull number 1000 will be built this year (?)--the 15th year of production. The 1000th C-25 was apparently delivered at the beginning of its third year (1979). I guess the C-310 is the new "starter yacht" now, or there are just too many "good ole boats" out there, with people keeping them nice.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/02/2010 08:24:41

Unsinkable2
Captain

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USA
273 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 08:27:44

Of course, while what I said above is true, if I could afford a bigger, newer boat and had a place to sail her, I would... :)

Edited by - Unsinkable2 on 03/02/2010 08:28:14

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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3444 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 08:30:57

Mike, I'd never suggest that the swing keel is a bad thing. In fact, if I were trailering or beaching it would certainly be the way to go. However, since I'm not, it's just one more maintenance issue that I'd rather not deal with. Obviously the swing keel can provide decades of good, reliable, safe service if treated properly.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 09:16:15

Dollars were the bottom line for me. I was able to snag an beautiful 89 wing keel for $10,200 and there have been no maintenance issues at all. Not quite as tender as a 250 from what I understand and has a more traditional look IMO.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 15:32:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 . . . and has a more traditional look IMO.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
We currently own a 1989 C25 which has a bit more of a squared off look compared to our previous 1981. Maybe I'm showing my age or RTC (resistance to change) but I think the overall design of original C25 in aesthetically timeless.
But on the other hand I didn't care for the Suburban/Yukon XL when GM gave them more curves in mid 90s . . . but now the early 90s models look dated! Go figure.

So, where do you think the instigator of this thread is?

Edited by - OJ on 03/02/2010 15:35:47

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 16:18:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 ...but I think the overall design of original C25 is aesthetically timeless. But on the other hand I didn't care for the Suburban/Yukon XL when GM gave them more curves in mid 90s . . . but now the early 90s models look dated! Go figure.

So, where do you think the instigator of this thread is?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Maybe we've confused him...

Maybe he isn't inclined to keeping up the chatter. Regarding aesthetics, I do think the C-25 will look good for a long time. When I was in the market, I was instantly turned off by the Hunter 260. I surely don't think the Cape Dories will ever look dated! You can see from my current boat that I'm attracted to more traditional styles--not Donzis.

Bottom line: The C-25 and C-250 were/are arguably the best values in their segments--they're well-designed and well-built for the money, and both have remained tasteful in appearance, unlike their main competitors.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/02/2010 16:19:36

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 16:37:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
. . . Maybe we've confused him...

Maybe he isn't inclined to keeping up the chatter . . . <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I've been referred to as a babbling brook on more than one occasion . . . and each time I believe the subject matter was . . .

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5368 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 21:00:39

Nick and I have been talking on email, he seems like a great guy. As he said, he's looking for a suitable boat for him and his group of friends and family.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 03/02/2010 : 21:11:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">But on the other hand I didn't care for the Suburban/Yukon XL when GM gave them more curves in mid 90s . . . but now the early 90s models look dated! Go figure.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 1999 Suburban/Yukon is the best looking one ever!

Edited by - on

ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 06:25:54

Nick,
Welcome,
I sail out of East Greenwich RI. I have not sailed on th 25 or the water ballast but I will share my experience. I have a nice mooring at a marina. I have experience with Narraganset, Jamestown, Newport. The 250 Wk is adequate for family of five. My wheel makes the cockpit comfortable for five or six as long as everyone minds the captain. We have had many overnights and even days with another family of four. I have also found her to be stable in 6-8 foot ocean waves (perhaps more so than bay chop). Unless your used to screaming around buoys I think you'll be happy with the 250 Wk.

Vern

Edited by - on

Mechan-Nick
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 07:06:00

Folks,

Thanks for all the responses and advice!

I have been sending direct emails to some folks to discuss specific topics but appreciate all the activity & posts.

I am new to 'Forums' so I apologize for not staying in the loop however, I have been reading all the comments.

Thank you again, Nick

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 13:01:42

We still have a 350 wing for sale at my club, comes with a trailer.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 20:20:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 We still have a 350 wing for sale at my club, comes with a trailer.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and a Freightliner for towing?

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 19:39:41

Or how about this?

Edited by - dmpilc on 03/05/2010 19:40:18

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