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Use a Belay Device for boom brake ?

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jbkayaker
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Initially Posted - 03/03/2010 : 14:26:24

Has anyone used a belay device, from the rock climbing hobby, as a boom brake ? Here's a website where the various kinds of belay devices are described:
http://climbing.about.com/od/climbinggear/a/BelayRapDevices.htm
and one with pictures:
http://www.rei.com/category/4500695

I am wondering if the simple figure 8 device would work like the Gyb Easy sold by Defender.com.

Edited see link in next post.

Jim Butler

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/03/2010 15:04:12

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 14:43:36

JB, your link didn't work. Try this one: [url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|118|319697|311639|199&id=911760"]Gyb Easy[/url] On sale for $229. I think I'll pass.

It looks like [url="http://www.rei.com/product/737857"]this one[/url] should work but, safety devices that are 1/10th the cost of others design to do the task make me a little nervous. Is this just a case of "marine" in the name driving the price?

Edited by - John Russell on 03/03/2010 14:44:36

Renzo
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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 16:14:21

Maybe I don't get it,but,why not rig your boom vang as a preventer, when going down wind, and then just ease it out when your gybing?

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 17:00:43

I intend to try using my figure 8 descender this season as a boom brake.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 17:51:02

I use my mainsheet as a boom brake to jibe safely.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 18:29:31

I'm with John--when running downwind with the boom out, to jibe, I'd turn up a little, sheet in tightly, perform the jibe, and then ease the sheet. No swing, and very little shock. I'm not a big fan of preventers--I think the boom brake is better protection from an unintended jibe. But I don't think I'd use climbing safety gear for safety purposes on a sailboat. The function might seem similar, but each device was designed for a specific purpose and load.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/03/2010 : 19:41:03

In Gary Jobson's book, "Sailing Fundamentals", he talks about the S-gybe especially in heavy weather, where he sails downwind, then "in the lee" to relieve the force of the wind while pulling the sail across, then swinging the boat once the sail has gybed and is on the opposite downwind tack.
You can google the term, and there are countless discussions on line.
I've rigged preventers especially in shifty conditions, but they are usually more trouble than they're worth.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 06:39:12

I rigged 2 preventers last year, and I leave them on the boom all th time. They add a lot of safety when running downwind in a light breeze. But I think a preventer is too dangerous in strong wind.

I tested my preventer by sailing from a run in a circle without adjusting the sails. The boom doesn't move an inch. That's why I use it.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 07:45:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ...the S-gybe especially in heavy weather, where he sails downwind, then "in the lee" to relieve the force of the wind while pulling the sail across, then swinging the boat once the sail has gybed and is on the opposite downwind tack...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">In heavy weather, I prefer the "chicken jibe"--basically a racer's 270 penalty turn. Although it's not necessary if my main is on the boom.

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/04/2010 07:47:37

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 09:10:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 Maybe I don't get it,but,why not rig your boom vang as a preventer, when going down wind, and then just ease it out when your gybing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Turning 270º to prevent a jibe or hauling in the main sheet for an intentional jibe are tactics I use. But something else is needed to prevent or tame an ACCIDENTAL jibe when there's a novice or nobody at the helm.

Think about racing with strong winds. While I am making that long scramble from the wheel to move the vang I would be perfectly placed to get whacked overboard by an accidental jibe. Repositioning the vang is not a quick one hand operation. (One hand for the boat in rough conditions !) Besides that optimum sail position time is lost resetting the vang on downwind. An easier to use preventer would be a rope or two with clips on the ends and an loop knot to adjust the length. But bottom line is that I want a jibe tamer. The other solutions don't do the same job.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/04/2010 09:50:53

Renzo
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 09:47:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Renzo
 Maybe I don't get it,but,why not rig your boom vang as a preventer, when going down wind, and then just ease it out when your gybing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Think about racing with strong winds. While I am making that long scramble from the wheel to move the vang I would be perfectly placed to get whacked overboard by an accidental jibe. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK. Now I get it. You didn't mention single handed racing in your original post.
PS: You have a wheel on you C-25 and you race it

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 10:05:13

I miss the better feel of a tiller when racing. But I don't miss the tired arm and frequent steering screw ups by novice crew. My tiller equipped 1990 MacGregor 26D had a weather helm problem I couldn't remedy because I was too cheap to put new sails on an under $9000 boat. With my Catalina 250WK and new high modulus Dacron sails I got a first place in our February 20th local PHRF race.

Edited by - on

Renzo
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 11:25:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jbkayaker
 I miss the better feel of a tiller when racing. But I don't miss the tired arm and frequent steering screw ups by novice crew. My tiller equipped 1990 MacGregor 26D had a weather helm problem I couldn't remedy because I was too cheap to put new sails on an under $9000 boat. With my Catalina 250WK and new high modulus Dacron sails I got a first place in our February 20th local PHRF race.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good for you!!

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/04/2010 : 15:14:45

This is what I am going to try using:

Black Diamond Super 8 Belay Device - REI Item# 4710980014
Black Diamond Oval Carabiner - REI Item# 4710410004
and some small braided nylon line.

I'll post results about the Ides of March.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/04/2010 15:30:09

redviking
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 06:34:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JohnP
 I rigged 2 preventers last year, and I leave them on the boom all th time. They add a lot of safety when running downwind in a light breeze. But I think a preventer is too dangerous in strong wind.

I tested my preventer by sailing from a run in a circle without adjusting the sails. The boom doesn't move an inch. That's why I use it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Boom brakes might be a little overkill on a C25, but certainly a safety item that should be considered if you have kids or guests about. On a bigger boat, a PITA but REALLY necessary as shock loads from an unintended jibe could break stuff. A boom brake eliminates this hazard. Just make sure you can release it when backwinded.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 03/05/2010 06:36:01

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 07:00:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> A boom brake eliminates this hazard. Just make sure you can release it when backwinded.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Since a boom brake only slows the boom swing I don't understand the concern about being able to release it ?

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/05/2010 07:01:28

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 07:28:21

A boom brake should STOP the boom in the event of an accidental gybe. Since that will only occur due to significant windshift, the mains'l will likely become backwinded. At that point, you will either need to steer to resolve the problem or the brake should be releasable to allow you to move the boom under control.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 16:22:07

How does the Gyb'Easy Boom Brake stop the boom and how do you release it ? I only see a friction device not a locking device. Rope friction provides the needed control. It is not a boom swing preventer.

It seems to me that the geometry that the boom brake rope passes over will be the same for the Gyb'Easy and a figure 8 belay device. Specifically a rope goes up thru a hole, then passes around a post (the waist of the figure 8), and then back down thru the same hole. The only difference I see is that the Gyb'Easy allows the rope to pass thru additional holes if more friction is needed.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/05/2010 16:27:39

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 16:31:40

I don't climb. Don't do heights.

It's the "additional holes" that cause the friction to be sufficient to keep the line from sliding. At least I think that's the theory.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 16:43:17

It seems I am far from the first to consider the figure 8 belay device. I found this today:
http://www.navagear.com/2009/05/wichard-gybeasy-boom-brake-a-climbers-figure-eight-on-steroids/

Some boom brakes are similar to tiller tamers.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/05/2010 16:55:34

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 17:08:51

If you can weld you can make your own GYB'Easy type like this one:
http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?s=f5768d6b3b97e80b44ea3b93977f8ced&act=attach&type=post&id=1340

Edit: The link above no longer works. See 3/23/2010 post for alternatives.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 03/23/2010 09:26:57

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 03/05/2010 : 19:05:16

I think it'd be sufficient for the brake to simply brake the boom, not stop it, but I could be wrong. While I plan to try my figure 8 descender, if I like how it works, I'll probably go to a rescue 8 instead (more friction).

Also, in case you weren't a climber, you can lock off a figure 8 pretty easily so it won't move, and all it takes is a flick to unlock it. If you don't know how, I can take some photos tonight, easier to explain it that way.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/06/2010 : 09:59:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 I think it'd be sufficient for the brake to simply brake the boom, not stop it, but I could be wrong...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IMHO, that's preferable to stopping it (as a preventer does). I greatly prefer the idea of the boom crossing over under control, compared to stopping it backwinded on the "new" windward side, especially in heavy air. In that situation, a preventer becomes a complication--you're pretty much forced to "re-jibe" to get back under control, whether you want to or not, but the backwinded main is trying to stop the boat at that moment.

One issue I observed about boom brakes is the line crossing the cockpit from the windward side. I asked a rep about how far forward on the boom the brake could be mounted (allowing the line to be at or forward of the bulkhead), and don't recall getting a definitive answer.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 03/07/2010 : 06:07:57

Folks often confuse Vangs, Preventers and Boom Brakes.

A Boom Brake is exactly that, it stops the boom and must be released or eased before the boom will move. A boom brake will probably need its own winch or at least a cleat P&S. I'll take a picture of my current setup and post it later.

Some other benefits include enchanced mainsail trim control. You can flatten the main when beating and let er loose when running.

I would think a simple block and tackle set up on P&S of a C25 with lines led aft to a cleat would do the trick. A boom brake was the one trick I never got around to for our old C25.

sten

Edited by - redviking on 03/07/2010 06:09:00

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/07/2010 : 09:18:27

The best way to understand how a boom brake works is to see one in action. I found a video on the Weichard website that quickly shows how it is installed and then shows it in action, repeatedly gybing in 25 knot winds, and it's so impressive that I've decided that I've got to get one. I found them on sale at Landfall for $210.00

You can download the video at this website (When you get to the Weichard website, click on the video link that says "Download the video (4 megas.": http://www.wichard.com/fiche-A%7CWICHARD%7C7150-0203030000000000-ME.html

Thanks for this discussion. I didn't understand the value of a boom brake.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/07/2010 09:41:10

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 03/07/2010 : 10:30:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 Folks often confuse Vangs, Preventers and Boom Brakes.

A Boom Brake is exactly that, it stops the boom and must be released or eased before the boom will move.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As you said, folks often confuse preventers and boom brakes. You described what sounds more like a preventer. Watch Steve's video. Boom brakes greatly slow the swing of the boom--no releasing required. The one I saw demonstrated was by Dutchman--a somewhat different system that performed the same function. (I wonder how long the line lasts on Wichard's system... not that I jibed often enough to make that an issue.)

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 03/07/2010 10:52:17

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