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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/03/2002 : 01:26:18

Hello All,

I may have found my Catalina 25. The hull number is 5830-something. It's an 86, standard rig, swing keel. It's only had one owner. Everything about the boat looks great. The deck is clean, the interior is clean, with only a few indications of moisture penetration around some of the deck hardware. The bottom is another story.

I have to rely on the expertise of others, because I've not had any experience working on sailboats, but I'm pretty sure the bottom needs to be sanded and repainted with bottom paint. All over the surface of the current bottem paint, it has been flaking, making for a rough surface. It looks as though it is flaking all the way down to the gelcoat (If I understand what the gelcoat is). I didn't feel or see any blisters, with the exception of maybe one.

The keel was not clean either. It had, for lack of a better term, oxidation growths all over it. Kind of the opposite of pitting. They seemed to be rust protrusions, coming out of the keel. I assume I just need to sand these down, but again, if anyone can lend their expertise for the really solution, please help!

Also, the trailer is original, and is very rusty. That is my main concern. I don't know if the trailer is road-worthy. The tires look excellent, but that's about it. The guy who currently ownes it admitted he has not done any maintenance on it because the boat stays in a slip all summer and is only on the trailer in the off season.

I DO plan on having a boat surveyor look at the boat and trailer, but I would like to hear others' advise on the boat. It comes with a lot of extras, a knot meter, 9.9 yamaha engine, pop top cover, boom tent, depth finder, furling jib. He's asking $12k for it, which I think is fair, if the trailer is usable. I personally don't plan on trailering it too much, but it is almost three hours from home, so it would definitely have to make that journey. I will have it in a slip all summer too.

I have pictures of all this, but I have to download it from a digital camera, and I can't do that till Monday.

So again, please, please, please give me some insite into what these problem areas will mean.

Thanks,

Ben (a wannabe C25 owner)

Ben

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2002 : 04:51:07

Ben,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> All over the surface of the current bottem paint, it has been flaking, making for a rough surface. It looks as though it is flaking all the way down to the gelcoat ... didn't feel or see any blisters, with the exception of maybe one.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I take it that the boat is out of the water, and has bee for some time, right? Some types of bottom paint get flakey when they're old and dried out. Blisters are most easily identified by lightly scuff sanding the bottom while still wet following pressure washing immediately after the boat comes out of the water. As the hull dries out, blisters tend to shrink and become harder to detect. That having been said, it's my opinion that blisters are more or less a fact of life with used boats that have been kept in the water, and shouldn't be considered a deal breaker.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Also, the trailer is original, and is very rusty. That is my main concern. I don't know if the trailer is road-worthy ... I personally don't plan on trailering it too much, but it is almost three hours from home, so it would definitely have to make that journey.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Be very carefull evaluating the trailer. These are really heavy boats, maybe around 5,000 lbs or more. If the trailer breaks on the way home, it's going to be your problem, not the seller's or the surveyor's. I doubt we (this group) are going to be able to give you a definitive answer over the Internet as to whether the trailer is safe or not. If your surveyor isn't very confident and experienced at evaluating trailers, then I suggest you get someone who is to look at it.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The keel was not clean either. It had, for lack of a better term, oxidation growths all over it. Kind of the opposite of pitting. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>That doesn't sound like the opposite of pitting, that is pitting. If you were to remove all the oxidation present at each of those lumps, what you'd have left is pits. Just about any cast iron keel that's spent much time in the water is going to have that problem until somebody goes to the expense and effort to encapsulate it in epoxy. (In my humble opinion.)

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I DO plan on having a boat surveyor look at the boat and trailer, ... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>See that you do! You might also benefit from reading up a bit on surveying, so that you get your money's worth out of the deal. I suggest What Shape Is She In?, by Allan Vaitses and Surveying Fiberglass Sailboats, by Henry C. Mustin. Also (if you haven't already done so,) study the info at the following links: [url="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/summertm.html"]Shopping for a Catalina 25 by Larry Charlot[/url], and [url="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/summert2.html"]Self Appraising a Catalina 25 by Larry Charlot[/url]

Good luck!<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2002 : 05:03:00

Ben,

Hope it all works out for you.

The most important thing to get is the marine survey. A good survey will identify the boats condition for you and the expertise of the surveyor will give you advise on what work is important and, if asked how to do it.

Re. bottom. It sounds like you have alot of work to do to get the bottom in condition. On another boat that I owned, I redid the bottom, and it was a major undertaking for me. The previous owner had just painted over the old bottom and I had to remove five or six coats of bottom paint. I sanded and scrapped, and sanded and scrapped. I used compounds like strip-ease and sanded and scrapped. Finally I found a compound that was applied to the old paint and then put a newsprint over it. Let it sit, according to the instructions, and then peal away the paper and the old paint. It worked! I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the product.

Since I dry sailed this boat and was painting also painting the topsides, I didn't put a protective bottom on, but prepared the whole hull for new paint.

I used Interlux when I painted the bottom of osmepneo, and found their instructions worked perfectly. I'd usggest you check their web site and see what they say needs to be done.

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

dave holtgrave
Captain

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USA
427 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2002 : 08:47:40

ben
my 25 is 5722 and is a 1987.
you may be newer than you think.
if you call catalina factory they can tell you when it was made.
i would do the survey because you are new.
i would offer less what ever it will cost to bring it back up to speed.

the trailer needs a good visual inspection and that will tell you the condition.
i have seen very rusty looking trailers that are structurally sound, tell just look bad.
check a few welds and see if they are entact,look for any member failures. it would take a lomg time for the trailers to rust away that they are not acceptable, probably more in the salt areas than inland.
if you are going on the highway and going to pull the trailer alot the tires are probably dry rotted and be sure to get the correct load rated tire for replacement.don't go too far without changing tires
when they heat up they will blow out. the brakes are probably not working on the trailer and mine haven't for years.
i trailer mine about 40 miles each way each year with no brakes on the trailer, i have flat land and no major traffic. just give yourself room and you will be alright.
i would say there are very few that the brakes work properly

dave
5722

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2002 : 09:03:20

Hi Ben...

I second the survey--and be there with the surveyor--you can ask questions and learn a lot about the boat and the priority of all of the projects that come with it.

Paint--Many of us (certainly I) have bought crusty bottoms with paint covering craters where other paint used to be, and paint peeling off. It'll slow you down if you're racing, but it won't harm you for daysailing and cruising... I have to admit that I put another coat (mine was ablative) over the craters and will attack it with the strippers and sander--maybe this off-season.

Keel rust--every swinger and some fins I've seen have it. There's a lot of cast iron there--it isn't really going away. Some grinding and "rust reformer" covered by some good metal paint will slow it down. A zinc annode will also slow, but not prevent recurrence. Your keel cable, its attachment point, the winch, and turning ball are much bigger issues. But you've already heard enough about that here... <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Blisters--Is/was it a freshwater boat? Fresh water tends to cause more blistering. The surveyor can tell you if the blisters are an issue, and West Systems' pamplet can tell you what to do about it.

$12K--Check sites like Yachtworld.com and boattraderonline.com to get some perspective on that. The motor and furlor are plusses, the trailor may be a neutral or negative because of the risks regarding its condition, and the rest is fluff with regard to price.

All the best--you can't go very wrong as long as you don't overpay. I'd offer something like $10.5 and point out why (after the survey). The guy wants to sell as much as you want to buy, and expects to sell for less than asking price--even if he claims otherwise.
<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 11/03/2002 09:10:31

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/03/2002 : 17:09:55

Thanks Everyone,

The boat is a freshwater boat, never been in salt. I may have trasnposed the hull number, it may be a 5380-something, because I'm pretty sure it's an 86 model.

It makes me feel a little better that the bottom paint and keel are not a problem if day sailing and cruising, which is what I'll be doing, and the bottom at least I can work on after the sailing season next year.

The only question is the trailer. I think I'm going to have two inspections done, one by the local marina who I will have give it a check-up in preparation of the trip. If they tell me they think it is okay to use, then I'll see if the boat inspector can also inspect the trailer, to get sort of a second opinion.

Thanks again everyone. I feel a little better about the boat and the work I'm going to put into it.

Ben

Ben

Edited by - on

Rick Heaverly 86 C25 5382
Navigator

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Belize
206 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 08:03:06

Invictus (5382)is an 86. I called Catalina and got them to send me a copy of the original equipment list and dealer info. It has a listing of all the options and original prices. Kind of neat to review.

Rick Heaverly
"Invictus"

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5932 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 09:00:08

Ben,

You seem to be on the right track in your approach to buying a boat. The following are some suggestions you might consider.

Flaking Bottom Paint

One should really not expect a coat of bottom paint to last more than one year. (Yeah, I know some of us go a couple of years between bottom paint jobs, but the boat's performance will be degraded.) At the end of each season, I powerwash the bottom. Before launching the boat next season, I lightly sand the bottom, and apply one coat of bottom paint with a 3-4" roller. When you only apply one coat for a 5-6 month season, the bottom paint doesn't build up thickly from year-to-year. If your boat is in the water year around, you need two coats.

The gelcoat on the bottom of the boat is white, so, when you see smooth white splotches under the flaking bottom paint, that is gelcoat showing through. That is a common condition. When a fiberglass boat is built, the gelcoat is covered with a thin wax coating, and, unless all that wax is removed before it is painted (which it almost never is) then the bottom paint does not adhere tightly to it. It will adhere for a year or two, which is why it is not a problem. When sanding the bottom, avoid sanding into the gelcoat.

Rusty Keel

Water is one of the most invasive substances known, and, given enough time, it will penetrate almost anything. Iron keels are cast rather crudely, and then the bumps are ground down by the factory. Depressions in the casting are smoothed over with fiberglass. The entire keel is then coated with a thick, tar-like substance to make it fairly waterproof, and then it is coated with bottom paint. I suspect that what you are seeing on the keel look like smooth bumps, that are 1 to 4 inches in diameter. If you tap on them with your fingernail, you can tell that they are hollow, and fragile like an eggshell. I think they are caused by gasses which form under the fiberglass, creating a bubble in the fiberglass. I believe that the gas forms either as a result of (1) oxygenated water getting under the fiberglass and coming into contact with the iron keel, and the resulting oxydization process, or, (2) gasses which formed as a result of electrolysis. As long as you have an iron keel, these bubbles will form. It is just a maintenance item.

I break the bubble with a hammer. Then, use a chisel to cut out any loose fiberglass around the bubble. Dry any moisture out of the exposed area. Then, clean the exposed surface with a wire brush bit in a power drill. Then, coat the exposed area with two or three coats of pine tar epoxy (VC Tar). Then, fill the depression with MarineTex. Sand it smooth, and cover with bottom paint. Notwithstanding anything the instructions on the can may say, let the MarineTex cure for two weeks before launching the boat.

Because electrolysis might be a cause of the problem, keep a good zinc anode on the keel.

If you do a good job, you might not have to re-fair the keel for up to 4-5 years. Or, it could be less.

Tires

Look carefully at the sidewalls of the tires to see if there is any indication of cracking. Frequently, tires on trailers have deep tread on them and look very good, because they have not been pulled for very many miles, but they dry rot from exposure to the ultra violet rays of the sun. If you buy the boat and trailer, adjust the trailer brakes before you pull it very far. Unlike cars, trailer brakes do not have automatic adjusters, and you have to adjust them manually every once-in-a-while.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 10:16:58

Quote "That having been said, it's my opinion that blisters are more or less a fact of life with used boats that have been kept in the water, and shouldn't be considered a deal breaker."

I concur, that it shouldn't be considered a deal breaker, but if there is blister damage, the cost of repair should be reflected in your offer (or in the asking price.) You shouldn't pay full dollar and be left with a major repair bill shortly after. Get the surveyor to assess the blister situation (if any), and if required, get a professional quote on doing the repair.

Edited by - on

Doug C.
Navigator

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USA
146 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 12:23:09

2 cents from a newbie.

Just bought Valkyrie in July of this year, she is a 1990, hull #6010. She was a fresh water only boat as well. Tall rig, furler, auto-pilot, full electronics (speed, depth, wind), 5W solar panel, electic start Johnson 9.9 sailmaster, Trailrite trailer. No rust anywhere, very clean. $12,500, probably could have got it for less. (they were asking 14k, I offered 12k, settled for 12.5k) I based my offer on slow market, trailer tires (some cracking), motor tune, and new batteries. I did not get a survey. Hard to find them in Arizona.

It sounds to me like you should be able to get this at a better price if the trailer is servicable and your other concerns are acceptable.

Hope this helps.

Doug Cavin
1990 C25 TR/WK #6010
"Valkyrie"

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 13:06:10

Thanks again for all your thoughts. I have pictures if anyone would like to see them, but I can figure out how to post them.

Ben

Ben

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 13:06:14

Thanks again for all your thoughts. I have pictures if anyone would like to see them, but I can figure out how to post them.

Ben

Ben

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 13:06:48

I mean, I can't figure out how to post them.

Thanks again.

Ben

Ben

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 13:42:19

Okay. I think I learned how to post pictures. Thanks Buzz!

Ben

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cf25b3127cce91e5974cfae90000001410" border=0>

Ben

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 14:07:38

I certainly don't see anything alarming from this single photo. As someone above mentioned, blisters will shrink and be almost unnoticable once the boat has been out of the water for a few days.
The trailer is a Trail-Rite which is good news. If you end up buying this combo, I'd take the trailer to a commercial sand blasting company who can also spray it with epoxy right after they've blasted it (oxidation begins the moment you've finshed cleaning.)
You might even consider having the keel blasted at the same time!

Edited by - OJ on 11/04/2002 14:12:52

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 14:36:00

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the keel is winched up off the support on the trailer. It also looks like the keel support on the trailer is pretty low for lowering and resting the keel on it, which I believe should be done except during launch and retrieval. I'm pretty sure you shouldn't travel down the road holding the keel up by the cable--even though I don't have a SK or a trailer. I just don't know whether that trailer is set up correctly to support the keel. <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 15:28:54

Dave, you are correct about the keel. It is not fully resting in the keel tray on the trailer as intended, but rather is resting on the edge of the tray. When the marina pulled it out for the owner, it wasn't centered properly on the trailer, so when the owner lowered the keel it didn't go into the slot as it was supposed to. It's not hanging by the cable, but I still wouldn't feel too comfortable driving really far with the keel supported in this manner.

Ben

Ben

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 16:31:57

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> One should really not expect a coat of bottom paint to last more than one year. (Yeah, I know some of us go a couple of years between bottom paint jobs, but the boat's performance will be degraded.)<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Here in the Chesapeake, I have routinely painted "Even Chance"'s bottom every OTHER year with Trinidad, and not had any problems. The last paint job actually went three years because I moved the boat the second year, and there were no blisters or excessive fouling.

Of course, I don't race. . . but I don't see why that makes a huge difference, so long as the antifouling is working well.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/04/2002 : 22:50:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Of course, I don't race. . . but I don't see why that makes a huge difference, so long as the antifouling is working well.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Slime, Brooke. The new anti-slime paints help...

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 03:39:34

Yes, Dave, I've been slimed. That's why I used Trinidad SR this year. But a powerwashing is a whole lot cheaper than a paint job. I also every now and then brush the rudder and the hull below the waterline as far as I can reach.

Brooke

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/05/2002 : 11:17:43

My problem is the powerwash takes patches of the paint right off. <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 11:50:18

That depends on the force used in the powerwash. I do use that as an opportunity to do a little touchup on the paint, but it is possible to do a slime washdown without stripping the paint.

Brooke

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 12:25:40

Just for comparison - I got four seasons out of VC17m. After I sanded the Interlux 2000 smooth last spring and applied new VC17m, I don't even need to power wash <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle> .

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 14:44:09

Ya, Steve, but also for comparison, some of us are in salt water. Antifouling paint plays a somewhat more important role here. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 15:03:51

Am I correct in re-paraphrasing your comment that the role of bottom paint isn't necessarily any more important by virtue of it being in salt water, but the paint's effective period between applications is definitely shorter ? (i.e. you need to apply more frequently when in salt water, otherwise marine build up will prevail ?)

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 15:19:18

Yes, that's probably better. It's just that after growing up around fresh water and then moving to the coast, I learned quickly that in salt water, good antifouling is not just nice to have--it's critical if you want your boat to be able to move and don't want to have to use a jack hammer on it after haulout. Every year, a few people at our club are lazy about their bottoms and hardly ever use their boats--it's fun to watch them trying to winch their boats onto trailers at the end of the season!

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 11/06/2002 15:20:53

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