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Where's my waterline?

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skrenz
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Initially Posted - 03/15/2010 : 15:17:34

I need the advice of the forum. When I bought my boat from the PO the original gel coat had been painted. I now have a situation where I am not sure that they got the boot stripe in the right place. Look closely at the picture below and see how the boot stripe at the bow is under water?

A possibly related issue is that when I look at my mast when the boat is at dock, it appears to be leaning forward and not a little backward. Now this could be an entirely unrelated issue. But I am wondering:
Is the boot stripe correct and the boat is down by the bows? If so, why? (No I don't have 200 lbs of anchor stored in the anchor locker).

If the boot stripe is in the wrong place, it would explain the way it seems to be sitting in the water and I can correct it. The mast placement would be another matter.

So here is what I am asking folks on the forum to do and since many of us have our boats on the hard, it's a good time to ask. In the picture below I am demonstrating a measurement that I would like to get from other owners, preferably ones who still have the original gel coat and boot stripe. This measurement is made from the bottom of the deck joint down the front edge of the bow to the top of the boot stripe.

Notice too in this picture how the bathtub ring is above the top of the stripe.
I appreciate everyone's help with this. Thank you in advance.

Steve Krenz
`Elan
1978 SR/SK #482
Santa Fe, New Mexico

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/15/2010 : 15:43:21

Many SK's report sitting down in the bows. Pearl doesn't, but I have 110 - 120# Mercury Bigfoot on the stern. With the keel down and nobody in the cockpit, the center of mass may be a little forward. I will measure Pearl when I haul her out for the return to Ohio at the end of the week if this isn't resolved by then.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 03/15/2010 : 16:22:24

I've read on this forum about this problem and have come to the conclusion that the C25 sits bow down. I suppose you could try and re-distribute some things farther aft or just live with it. Mine sits the same way as yours as you can see in the photo. Mine is a wing keel so the problem isn't just with the swingers.

Edited by - islander on 03/15/2010 16:33:10

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 03/15/2010 : 16:26:29

If you just repaint the stripe a little higher at the bow, it should take care of the mast leaning forward and the 'bow down' look.

Mine is a swing keel and sitting level on the trailer, it's 48 inches from the top of the boot stripe to the bottom of the rub rail.

It looks to be about 1/2 inch farther to the seam but I'm not positive.
Ed

Edited by - Ed Cassidy on 03/15/2010 16:30:38

John Russell
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Response Posted - 03/15/2010 : 16:59:26

Your bow lines seem to be pretty tight. I wonder if they're pulling against a spring line and pulling the bow down? The "bath tub ring" you describe occurs from resting at anchor or at your slip. Could it be something as simple as your lines may be too tight?

To check if your mast is actually leaning forward, hang something relatively heavy (a wrench, not an anchor

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 08:55:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Your bow lines seem to be pretty tight. I wonder if they're pulling against a spring line and pulling the bow down? The "bath tub ring" you describe occurs from resting at anchor or at your slip. Could it be something as simple as your lines may be too tight?

To check if your mast is actually leaning forward, hang something relatively heavy (a wrench, not an anchor

) from a halyard. Then measure the distance from the mast to the halyard at the level of the wrench. On a calm day it should hang sraight down if the mast is vertical. Get a neighbor to take a picture when you're in the cockpit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good thoughts but no, the lines are not too tight. This situation happens all the time not just the one time I took the picture. I have not anchored yet at all since I bought the boat so its not that either.
I have already tried measuring the mast with the halyard and a heavy object. What I found was that the mast was leaning forward by 6" using that method. But here is the thing. If the whole boat is not "level" than this measurement is also off.

Edited by - on

PCP777
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 09:12:38

My FK doesn't seem to do that but I can't find a well lit pic.

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islander
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 14:32:49

Peter, It probably did but with all the extra grinders and gear the PO put on that boat it leveled it out!

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 15:19:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 Peter, It probably did but with all the extra grinders and gear the PO put on that boat it leveled it out!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

HAHAHAHA!!!!

I literally laughed out loud.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 17:42:59

If you want to point high and go fast, the mast should be tilted quite far back. The best way to get it right is to sail, take your hand off the tiller and see if it rounds up (weather helm) or rounds down (lee helm). Correct lee helm by tilting the mast back.

My mast is tilted back at the masthead about 10 inches compared to the boat right next door. I have hanked on sails, adjustable backstay, balanced rudder. I have the forestay turnbuckle just about all the way out.

Most guest Cat 25 sailors can't believe how well Indiscipline is balanced. You can let go of the tiller and she'll sail straight. I adjust lee helm and weather helm with the backstay.

Those of you with roller furling may need to add a little 2 inch extension under the drum to lengthen the forestay a little.

Adjust forestay for just a little weather helm and then readjust all shrouds according to Milby/Crawford method to have proper balance.

Can't speak to "bow down" attitude at rest. With a 9.8 tohatsu, 10 gallons of gas, plus me in the back my boat is always squatting in the stern!

50 feet of 5/16 anchor chain in the bow locker helps balance the boat and I also have extra ballast under the starboard setee (2nd anchor + chain).

I've experimented with making the boat really, really light and I find it rides better with some weight on her.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 18:38:55

Jim
I need the link to the <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Milby/Crawford method<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">! I seem to recall reading about it, but was unable to find it.

Last weekend, I replaced the upper shroud turnbuckle that was bent. Now, I have NO IDEA whether I'd balanced both sides. She's up on jackstands now, so its impossible to tell if the mast is plumb.

When she gets back in the water, I should be able to readjust the shrouds.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 18:58:02

I rake the mast slightly aft with the boat in the water and suggest that you do the same. That will reduce the static bow down somewhat and convey Jim's benefit as well. One or two people in the cockpit probably levels it out.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 19:18:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Jim
I need the link to the <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Milby/Crawford method<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">! I seem to recall reading about it, but was unable to find it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here's the text:

Tuning the Rig of a C-25

Before we discuss the processes that should be used in tuning your rig, let’s think about how each stay functions. Each stay has a specific purpose, to provide support from a specific direction, and to prevent the mast from bending in an improper direction or to an excessive extent.

If your rig is properly tuned, the tightened backstay will pull the top of the mast aft. The headstay will limit the distance that the top of the mast can tilt or bend aft. The forward lowers will resist the pull of the backstay and prevent the lower part of the mast from moving aft. At the same time, the forward lowers will provide lateral support to the lower portion of the mast, to keep the lower part of the mast from sagging to leeward. The uppers will provide lateral support to the top of the mast, to keep it from sagging off to leeward. As the tension on the backstay adjuster increases, it will exert a downward force on the mast. The mast step and keel will resist the downward force on the mast. Since the mast can't move downward, to release the pressure, the mast will bow in the middle. Because the forward lowers are adjusted snugly, and the aft lowers are adjusted loosely, the lower part of the mast can only bend one way, i.e. forward. As the lower part of the mast bows forward, the aft lowers will become taut, and prevent the mast from bending so far out of column as to damage the mast. In order for the backstay adjuster to work properly, the stays have to be adjusted with differing tensions, so that they allow the mast to bend in the proper direction. If all the upper and lower mast stays are snugged down to more or less the same tension in all directions, when you pull on the backstay adjuster, the mast won’t bend, because the stays will prevent any part of the mast from moving in any direction.

Boat Without Adjustable Backstay 

Begin tuning your rig by alternately tightening the headstay and backstay turnbuckles until the headstay and backstay have little or no sag, but so that they are not bar-tight.

Next, loosen all your lower stays just enough to take the tension off them. Then, tighten the upper stays snugly by an equal number of turns on each side. Next, take your jib halyard, and use it as a measuring device (you might need to tie a piece of line onto it, to lengthen it), to make sure that the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the starboard side of your boat is the same as the distance from the top of your mast to the chainplate for the upper stay on the port side of your boat. If the distance is not equal, adjust your upper stays until the distance is equal on both sides. That will ensure that your mast does not lean more to one side than the other.

Now, adjust your forward lower stays until the slack is just taken out of them. Then continue tightening them, alternately by an equal number of turns, until they are as tight as you can comfortably get them by hand. Then do the same with your aft lowers. Lie down on the coach roof, and sight up the mainsail track, to see if the mast is straight. If so, then use tools to tighten each lower stay a little more, alternately by an equal number of turns, until the tension of the lower stays is snug, and equal all around. Sight up the mast again to be sure it is still straight. If it is not, then make such adjustments to the lower stays as are necessary to make it so.

Tighten the locknuts on all your turnbuckles, including the uppers, lowers, headstay and backstay. With these adjustments, your mast will not be perfectly adjusted, but it should be "in the neighborhood." Sail the boat, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm or lee helm. It will probably have excessive weather helm. If the boat has excessive weather helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward. If the boat has excessive lee helm, readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further aft. If you do not have an adjustable backstay, you are done.

Boat with Adjustable Backstay 

If you have an adjustable backstay, you have a little more adjustment to do. Make sure that the tension on the backstay adjuster is completely released. Then loosen the turnbuckle on the headstay until the headstay is slack. Next, adjust the aft lowers until they are slack. Then apply strong tension to the backstay adjuster. Adjust the headstay so that the mast tip bends aft about 8-9 inches when the backstay adjuster is tensioned. When the backstay adjuster is eased, the headstay should be quite slack. Adjust the aft lowers so that they become tight when the backstay is tensioned. The way to do that is to apply the maximum tension on the backstay adjuster. Then adjust the aft lowers until they just become taut. When you release the tension on the backstay adjuster, the aft lowers will become slack. When you re-apply the backstay tension, the aft lowers will become taut again. To increase the amount of mast bend, loosen the headstay and the aft lowers, but do not allow your eagerness for speed to cloud your judgment.

Sail the boat again, and observe whether it has excessive weather helm when the backstay adjuster is fully tensioned. If the boat has excessive weather helm, then readjust all the stays so that the entire mast is tilted further forward.

Using a Loos Gauge to Tune the Mast 

I don’t own a Loos gauge, and have never used one to tune my rig. I make sure that the mast is vertical, adjust the stays so that they are generally snug, and adjust the rig to allow the mast to bend within safe parameters, and no more. Then I test-sail the boat after tuning the rig, to see if it is performing to my expectations.

Having said that, I believe that most sailors would benefit from using a Loos gauge. Once you have tuned your rig so that the boat is very fast, a Loos gauge can help you accurately reproduce that same setting, after working on your mast or shrouds, or after lowering and raising the mast.

Derek Crawford is one of the most knowledgeable C-25 racers that I know, and he uses the Loos gauge to tune his rig. With his permission, I am reproducing his recommendations for tuning with a Loos gauge.

"I've just re-tuned "This Side Up" for light to moderate air. The Loos gauge reads (just using the FRONT of it - don't bother converting to the back side numbers), aft lowers - 10" of slack (just registers on the gauge), uppers 30, forward lowers 25. The forestay has 10" sag and the backstay a good 6" (when not tensioned). All these are taken with mainsheet, vang and cunningham loose.

The most important parameter of all is to have the mast in column (straight up & down and from side to side) and make doubly sure that the masthead doesn't hook slightly to one side or the other (sight up the mast track to best check this).

With these dialed in you'll be fast to weather and even faster downwind. When the wind kicks up past 15k I put an extra turn on all the shrouds."

I hope this helps.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/16/2010 19:22:48

Dave Bristle
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Response Posted - 03/16/2010 : 20:18:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 The most important parameter of all is to have the mast in column (straight up & down and from side to side) and make doubly sure that the masthead doesn't hook slightly to one side or the other (sight up the mast track to best check this).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Another way to check is to pull the shackle-end of the main halyard taut and hold it close to the mast slot. Any curvature will stand out clearly next to the straight halyard. Keep in mind that if your halyards don't run inside the mast, the main halyard comes off the masthead a fraction of an inch to starboard, in which case you can align it with the starboard side of the slot.

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 07:25:49

Guys, all this mast tuning and placing information is really helpful and I appreciate it.

But what I really need right now is the measurement from the bottom of the deck joint down the front edge of the bow to the top of the boot stripe. That will tell me what I need to know before I repaint the bottom of my boat while now on the hard.

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OJ
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 10:46:03

Perhaps I could piggyback a question here.

My C25 never had a bow eye and I need to install one. If anyone anyone can supply the dimension from the bottom of the rubrail to the center of the bow eye - it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Edited by - on

Ed Cassidy
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 13:13:28

My post about three posts in or so answers your quyestion.

it's 48 inches from the top of the boot stripe to the bottom of the rub rail. It looks to be about 1/2 inch farther to the seam but I'm not positive.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 15:08:29

Thanks Steve

Edited by - on

delliottg
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 15:48:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">so its impossible to tell if the mast is plumb.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You can still get your mast plumb, if you've got a 50' fiberglass tape. Tie it to your halyard, run it up the mast & measure to your chainplates. When the mast is plumb, the length from the top of the mast to the chainplate should be equal on either side (this makes some assumptions like your spreaders aren't at different angles, etc.).

Edited by - on

triley
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 19:35:55

I have learned so much from this thread. Going to try to adjust the way Steve described.

I have some trouble keeping my headsail- foiled- absolutely taut when I apply the backstay adjuster upwind. I sometimes forget because I can't see the poor shape. Gotta look at it more often as we tauten upwind!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 03/18/2010 : 19:36:31

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 03/19/2010 : 09:44:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ed Cassidy
 
it's 48 inches from the top of the boot stripe to the bottom of the rub rail. It looks to be about 1/2 inch farther to the seam but I'm not positive.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well that confirms my suspicions. I measured my waterline and it is 49". An inch difference would definitely make it look different. I might even change it by 2".

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 
Perhaps I could piggyback a question here.

My C25 never had a bow eye and I need to install one. If anyone anyone can supply the dimension from the bottom of the rubrail to the center of the bow eye - it would be greatly appreciated.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

O.J. my bow eye is centered 28" below the bottom of the rub rail. Although I think you should consider how that placement will align with the pull from the trailer winch. The bow eye should line up or perhaps be slightly lower than the pull from the winch. I don't think it should be higher because that would tend to pull the bow down just as you were pulling it into position. But others on the forum might disagree with this.

Edited by - on

skrenz
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Response Posted - 03/19/2010 : 10:15:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby

I have always believed that these boats all have minor variations in the length of their shrouds, the height and placement of the mast, etc. It isn't particularly important that every measurement on every boat be exactly the same. The turnbuckles afford plenty of adjustability to compensate for any minor differences. What matters is that the boat performs correctly, without excessive weather or lee helm. You might not be able to accurately measure the rake of the mast, but, when you have to use both hands to hold the tiller in a strong wind, you'll sure as heck know that it's raked too far aft.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well of course that is the correct way to look at things. But it bothers me that the stated length of a standard rigged C-25 Forestay is 29' 10" according to the Rigging Specification Schedule. My forestay is 30' 1 1/2" already and I still seem to have the mast leaning forward by a fair amount. The mast itself is about 1/2" longer than the specification (this was a replacement mast by the PO from Catalina Direct). That 1/2" would make up for some of the extra length in the forestay but not this much. It is looking to me that I will need to extend my forestay by as much as 8" to get the mast leaning back a little. By that amount, the rigging setup on this boat is going to be way out of line from the specifications. Will that affect my racing rating?
As far as sailing goes, she certainly does not have a weather helm. If anything she has lee helm which would be expected with this configuration.
Whatever the length of the forestay works out to be to correct the mast rake, I am going to have to figure out how to extend the forestay length without replacing this essentially brand new forestay. I am already in the process of installing an adjustable backstay so that will not be a problem.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 03/19/2010 : 11:56:23

Just confirmed the measurement on Pearl- 49". The bow eye is 27.5". As noted, it must be aligned with your winch, and substantial backing is required.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 03/19/2010 : 13:36:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 . . . The bow eye is 27.5". As noted, it must be aligned with your winch, and substantial backing is required.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Thanks very much David. CD sells a hardwood backing block which I will probably embed in an epoxy/filler mix.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 03/19/2010 : 14:41:02

BTW- The reason I call it the Milby/Crawford method is because I set everything up according to Milby's guide then adjust with a Loos gauge using Crawford's numbers.

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