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Replacing my top gudgeon & bottom one, too!

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/22/2010 : 05:36:57

My rudder clicks back and forth when sailing and at anchor. Time for new gudgeons. I'm replacing the top one first.

I received my order from CD of a [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=301"]21st century gudgeon [/url]with a plastic grommet, a rented [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1046"]4" hole-saw[/url], and a [url="http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=315"]4" inspection plate with cover[/url].

So I am ready to make the biggest hole so far in my boat. I plan to line up the cut opposite the top gudgeon, put a garbage bag inside the transom from the bottom inspection port inside the quearterberth (to catch the debris and dust), seal up that bottom hole with plastic and duct tape, and drill away. The hole saw has a center drill to position the hole accurately, and it's extended just enough to keep from drilling the opposite wall of the transom.

After that's done, I'll take off the rudder & tiller, and then tape the gudgeon bolts to the boat before removing the nuts inside the new access hole. The boat is in the water, and I need to re-use the bolts. Then I can install the shiny new gudgeon, as well as the cover for the inspection plate.

(While I have the rented hole saw, I also plan to punch a hole in the top of my water tank and clean it out, based on the advice I got from the recent discussion about fresh water systems.)

Any problems to avoid with the gudgeon installation? Other hints, from those who have done this?

JohnP
1978 C25 SR/FK "Gypsy"
Mill Creek off the Magothy River, Chesapeake Bay
Port Captain, northern Chesapeake Bay

Edited by - JohnP on 10/22/2010 10:24:39

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2010 : 07:04:49

makes complete sense to me...especially cutting an access hole into the water tank...just be cautious w/ eye protection, especially as you are working outdoors, the wind can pick-up the fiber glass dust and blow it into your face and eyes...don't ask how I know, but after several visits to an eye surgeon, the debris is finally cleared from my eyes...

Edited by - jerlim on 04/22/2010 07:08:37

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2010 : 08:33:02

John,

I would recommend cutting the hole in the top of the water tank first - as the teeth of hole saw may be toast by the time you are finished cutting the hole in the fiberglass . . .

Good luck and post some pix as I need to do the same project!

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/22/2010 : 12:22:34

If your boat is in the water tie a string through the gudgeon hole and secure the other end to a stanchion. That way if you go butterfingers you won't lose your shiny new gudgeon. The new gudgeon screw holes line up nicely with the old so you shouldn't have to drill new ones.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 04/22/2010 12:23:33

Patrice C25
1st Mate

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78 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2010 : 05:33:35

Hi,
Just a remember, don't forget to put some 3M or sika around your bolt holes before reinstalling the new gudgeon. :-)

And the inspection hole on the water tank, I have it, and it's great for clean-up in spring. You won't regret.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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351 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2010 : 12:08:01

Cutting the hole for the clean out in the water tank is super easy and in fact a hole saw is probably overkill. But I guess if you got it, use it. If for some reason it doesn't want to cut cleanly in the water tank, and it possibly could be a problem since the tank is this much softer plastic than fiberglass, it is very easy to cut the hole using a jig saw and medium tooth blade.

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2010 : 14:18:41

I replaced both of my gudgeons last summer and it is something of a bear to do. When you drill the hole for your inspection port on the top gudgeon think about drilling it a litle above the centerpoint of the gudgeon. That way you can see the gudgeons when you are sitting on the cockpit seat. If you drill it dead cventer on the gudgeon (as I did) you will have to do the whole job lying down in the cockpit. When you have the access port drilled out you will have to remove a good bit of fiberglass to get to the nuts. I found that a Dremel tool was good for this. Once the nuts are removed you will find that the bolt actually goes through a threaded sleeve in the hull and you will have to unscrew it from outside the boat. Once the old bolts are out it's a breeze.

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2010 : 14:22:18

Sorry, I meant to say that you will be able to see the gudgeon nuts while you are sitting in the cockpit.

Edited by - on

andypavo
1st Mate

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USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 04/23/2010 : 15:32:03

Pics please!

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2010 : 06:54:40

Unfortunately I won't be back on my boat for about three weeks, but I think my previous post was sort of confusing. The bolt for the gudgeon goes from the outside through the hull and into a brass backing plate which is inside the hull. This is what is threaded. Then a nut is attached to the bolt. The nuts on my boat were covered with about 1/4" of fiberglass which had to be removed before I could get a socket on the nut. I did not remove the brass backing plate since it was totally covered with fiberglass, but I did an additional 1/8" aluminum backing plate which might be overkill. I will get some pictures when I get back to my boat.

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tbosch
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163 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2010 : 07:08:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by michaelj
 I replaced both of my gudgeons last summer and it is something of a bear to do. When you drill the hole for your inspection port on the top gudgeon think about drilling it a litle above the centerpoint of the gudgeon. That way you can see the gudgeons when you are sitting on the cockpit seat. If you drill it dead cventer on the gudgeon (as I did) you will have to do the whole job lying down in the cockpit. When you have the access port drilled out you will have to remove a good bit of fiberglass to get to the nuts. I found that a Dremel tool was good for this. Once the nuts are removed you will find that the bolt actually goes through a threaded sleeve in the hull and you will have to unscrew it from outside the boat. Once the old bolts are out it's a breeze.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Michael,

Since you've done this project I'm hoping you can answer a question for me. Do you really need to install the inspection plate to replace the gudgeon? I removed, cleaned up, resealed and reinstalled by lower without removing anything inside the boat. I didn't have any trouble removing the bolts from the outside and had no trouble getting them back in. I was afraid to attempt this with the upper just in case it didn't go so well. According to the Catalina Direct site for the gudgeon upgrade, the "Hole pattern is the same as on all Catalina 25's". So why couldn't you remove the old and install the new without going through the effort and expense of installing the inspection plate? Did you find that you really did need the cockpit access?

Thanks

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2010 : 16:12:07

I know the bolts holding mine on have free wheeling nuts on the inside which need to be held to back out the bolts. The fact you did not have to do this when replacing the lowers may mean yours is different than mine. Try backing out one of the upper bolts and see what kind of luck you have. Worst case would be you have one loose bolt until you can cut the access hole.

Edited by - on

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 04/24/2010 : 17:51:01

I just installed the new gudgeon on my '77. I didn't want to cut the big hole in the transom so I did mine a little different.
I cut the lip off the old gudgeon so it was a flat plate. I tack welded three nuts on the back of the old plate.
I ran two short pieces of small rope through the outside two bolt holes in the transom. I threaded the small rope through the two outside holes of the old gudgeon plate and tied a knot on the back side. Then I pulled the old plate up against the inside of the transom with the two little ropes. I put a bolt through the new gudgeon and into the old one through the center hole. I pulled the rope out of one of the end holes and installed a bolt there. Then I pulled the other rope out of the last hole and installed a bolt. I gooped it up and bolted it on. The old plate makes a great backing plate and no hole in the transom.m.

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michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2010 : 06:06:18

Todd,

As you can see fro the responses there are a lot of different ways to do this. If you can access the nuts for the top gudgeon from the access hatch behind the quarter berth I don't see why that wouldn't work. It's no big deal to put an inspection plate into the transom, and I expect that you will find it a lot easier to work on the top gudgeon from it.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2010 : 09:02:34

Just changed the upper gudgeon yesterday. The hole saw cut through the water tank (first) easily, and cut through the transom easily, too. The transom inside wall is only 1/4" thick.

I am glad that I didn't even drop any tools into the water. Only lost one cotter pin. I was concerned that the new gudgeon would not allow a cotter pin to fit in place, but that was not the case.

By the way, the 3 original gudgeon bolts had worked their way loose over the 32 years since the boat was built. The 3 lock nuts were frozen on the bolts with 1/16" to 1/8" of play. The threads were stripped from the constant motion of the bolts in the fiberglass of the transom. I had to replace all 3 bolts. None of this could be seen from the outside. The gudgeon seemed to be stuck in place with loose bolts, but it may also have been making a clicking noise off the stern. I'll never know.

I added a 6" x 2" x 1/8" aluminum backing plate. The original bolts had no backing plate - only small washers.

The situation with the old bolts was hard to figure out without close inspection, and I could not have done the work without the access hole.

Almost all of the rattle is gone from the rudder, and next I'll change the bottom gudgeon to finish the upgrade. That's simpler with the large access panel in the Q-berth.

I ground the new paint off the hole saw, but otherwise it only got about 2 minutes of use. Well worth the $10 rental fee from CD.

Edited by - JohnP on 04/26/2010 05:23:47

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 04/25/2010 : 17:09:24

I ground the bolts off my original gudgeons. The original bolts were 1/4-20. I installed the new ones with 5/16-18 bolts.
I added two layers of 2408 biax on the inside of the transom where the lower gudgeon goes. I made a big stainless backing plate for it. Should be plenty strong, I hope.

Edited by - on

michaelj
Navigator

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132 Posts

Response Posted - 04/26/2010 : 03:51:04

Congratulations, John. Sounds like a job well done. I think that you'll be happy that you put a backing plate on.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/02/2010 : 18:22:39

Had a nice day sailing on Thursday evening through Friday.

At anchor the rudder makes no noise now, after replacing the upper gudgeon. And the shimmy in the tiller underway is greatly reduced.

I'm glad I did it.

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JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2010 : 10:31:55

With the boat out of the water last month for bottom paint, I could easily replace the bottom gudgeon.

The new bottom gudgeon bolts fit in the old holes like a charm, the rudder swings smoothly with no more rattles, and replacing the top and now the bottom gudgeons was one fix that was well worth the trouble!

Hope to go out this Saturday, with SW 5-10 kt predicted on the Chesapeake. Waning full moon - might anchor out overnight in the brisk Fall air. All the summer boat traffic is gone, and it's smooth sailin'.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2010 : 11:51:10

I think I might need to do this as well, my tiller is starting to get a shimmy in it.

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