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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

varnish or laquer?

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KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/27/2010 : 11:15:54

Need to re-do my handrails and some exterior wood on the C25.
I'm wondering which product from West Marine I should use.
Planning on leaving the wood attached to the boat; there are just
some small areas that need attention. Any thoughts on cheap and easy?

Unicorn
78•C25•SK
Hood River, Oregon
http://www.eclipsefilms.com/unicorn.jpg

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 11:26:18

[url="http://www.westmarine.com/1/2/home-paint-maintenance-paint-varnish-teak-oil-cetol-marine-wood-finish"]Cetol[/url] varnish by Sikkens.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 13:21:18

There are many, many threads on this subject, with debates between oiling and finishing exterior teak (or just letting it deteriorate)... David mentions the most widely-used product, which is not actually a varnish. The basic problem with varnish, polyurethane, or lacquer on the exterior is that when it eventually splits and a little moisture gets under it, you pretty much have to remove all of it and start over--something several people here have suffered. Also, as the sun heats teak, the oil migrates to the surface and tends to lift varnish off, causing peeling and the need to remove the finish.

Cetol is a permeable coating that soaks into the teak--it takes maybe four coats on bare teak to get a nice surface. The best feature is that you can touch up and overcoat Cetol after no more than a light rubbing with a 3-M pad. The finish is a bit "muddier" than varnish due to the UV-inhibiting pigments.

There are three shades: Marine (the original, and somewhat orange), Light (slightly milky), and the newest, Natural Teak (lighter and more yellow than Marine). There's also a Gloss version that's meant to be a topcoat over any of the others, but not really meant to be used alone. I personally prefer the satin finish of the other three, and have returned to Marine after trying Natural Teak.

Cetol applies easily with a foam brush, which makes doing rails in place easier. However, the best results generally require an initial sanding to take off weathered wood where the grain has been opened up by the deterioration. You can search for discussions on removing and replacing the hand-rails.

I believe Armada is a similar product--it used to be a darker brown than Cetol, and I've been told WM's Woodpro is made by Sikkens and is essentially Cetol, but I have no proof.

I've been aboard Sabres, Island Packets, and Tartans with brightwork done with Cetol at the factory. The salesmen told me it was because the buyers wanted it.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 15:16:58

. . . or, if you're growing weary of teak maintenance (as I certainly have) you can try this system (recently recommended by Stinkpotter.)

http://www.semcoteakproducts.com/semco_products.htm

. . . and more leisure reading

http://astro.temple.edu/~bstavis/rr/varnish.htm

Edited by - OJ on 04/27/2010 15:21:38

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 18:34:10

The "Brightwork" article is interesting... Some people are a lot more dedicated (via time or $$) to theirs than I have ever been. I suspect that the approaches using penetrating epoxy are heavy bets--you won't be able to sand it off and start over. Cetol is simple, easy to maintain, and I suspect it's easier to change your mind.

Semco is interesting... I haven't used it, but a friend has for years on his classic cutter. It produces a natural, unfinished surface, which apparently resists weather, sun, and other assaults. Cetol looks more like varnish (satin or gloss)--Semco looks more like bare teak, optionally with some color. It appears to be a nice option.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 19:30:54

I read the article, and that is why I don't varnish outdoor wood. Let me see - 1 coat 75% thinned, 1 coat 50% thinned, 2 coats 25% thinned and then you are ready to build up 5 - 10 coats. Of course there is sanding in between, touch-up in the Fall, 2 refresher coats each Spring, and strip and re-do every 4 - 5 years. I suppose if I hated sailing and just wanted people to notice my boat....

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5396 Posts

Response Posted - 04/27/2010 : 19:43:17

Cetol works and looks great, but, make sure that you protect your fibreglass with tape. I removed the brightwork before treating it with Cetol. I did six coats.
I've done some touch ups (two coats) while the wood was on the boat. I was very careful, and still had a slip up in an out of the way spot.

You've just gotta be careful if you are going to completely rehabilitate the brightwork.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 06:32:04

The straw that broke my back was after removing all of the teak, sanding it down to bare wood, applying a couple-three coats of Cetol, reinstalling everything, then sand, mask and recoat the following spring only to have the Cetol migrate under the masking tape onto the gel coat . . .

. Now the newer C25 has the eyebrow

. Seems like when a hot spot develops with Cetol - you are not able to restore it to look like the surrounding area

.

Anyone want to know how I <i>really</i> feel

about maintaining teak?

I was told by the people at Semco that there's no need to mask with their product - if you get sealer on your gel coat it is easy to wipe away. I will post some pix of the Semco results in the near future.

Edited by - OJ on 04/28/2010 12:41:34

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 12:24:53

Darn, I know I've got a high-gloss laquer/varnish pre-existing condition and only want to touch it up. Cetol sounds lovely, but it would entail
stripping all the laquer off what I've already got. I need to fix 5% of the brightwork with a laquer... I'll spend some time reading up on the
previous links, thanks folks!

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1787 Posts

Response Posted - 04/28/2010 : 19:00:55

I guess I am getting old and have had too many boats.

Years ago it was strip to the wood and apply 7-9 coats of Schooner varnish via rag to eliminate brush marks -- sanding between coats. With 24 hour dry times, the projects were all winter events. Then I progressed to Silkens -- somewhat similar. Then on a Pearson Electra I owned the yard (Brewers) gave me a secret -- use Interlux "quick dry sealer" for the first 6-7 coats and one to two coats of whatever you want over -- saves time and looks great. It did save time and did look great. Did it again on a Renegade then I got the C25 and got into a conversation with the owner of the neighboring boat and decided to just use oil. Yes, I still have maintenance. Yes, it does not look quite as "yar" But, I spend half the time each season and have a good grip on the handrail when needed.

The bottom line is that their are many good products/options but none are the "silver bullet". Use what looks right for your situation and you won't go too wrong.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 04/29/2010 : 03:21:47

Yep, while on my death bed I'll be saying, "oh how I wish I'd spent more time refinishing the teak on the boat."

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

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USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2010 : 04:53:46

I switched this year from West Marine to Epiphanes varnish, which seems to be clearer. I've done the teak oil thing, I've used Armada, which was awful, and have used varnish for many years now. Yes, it's more work, but I like the look so much more than I do anything else. I've had the Catalina Direct spats on my handrails for years, which has eliminated revarnishing. Next on my wish list is the CD sunbrella coach roof cover for the rest of the teak, which I hope will cover a multitude of potential sins.

That being said, I heartily approve of the new Catalinas, which have eliminated all the topside teak trim: better for the rainforests and for our sailing time. I just wish I could afford one!

Edited by - on

Tradewind
Admiral

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USA
531 Posts

Response Posted - 05/01/2010 : 12:25:03

I had a Cal 36 with teak toe rails, cockpit coamings, bowsprit, 4 hand rails and companionway boards. I found that if the weather was perfect for varnishing it was also perfect for sailing. I think in 26 years I never had all the brightwork done properly with my desired 10 coats of varnish at the same time. I love my 250 with minimum teak, a little oil here and there is enough.

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 05/06/2010 : 08:09:07

Stay away from Bristol finish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cetol natural is the way to go for me. I applied 4 coats over bare teak on my Ericson about a year and a half ago. Haven't touched it up yet. 3M pads and throw away foam brushes are the way to go.

I'm one of those folks who don't like the orange of regular Cetol. To each his own.

Does laquer have UV inhibitors? Probably not, but I'm not sure

Edited by - on

KiteKraemer
Navigator

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191 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 22:01:54

ok folks, i just did a first coat. it took me all of a half hour to sand and varnish (50% thinner / 50% varnish) for the small spots I had.
It's very simple and easy going. WHEW! I was stressing it the whole time. Next coat will be 100% varnish and I'm done! not at all like bottom coating!

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5396 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 06:11:12

Ask a simple question, and you'll start a huge discussion!
Discussion might get highjacked. Folks will show you pictures.
One thing's for sure, you'll get a whole lot more than you ever bargained for.

. . . . but that's precisely why we subscribe, isn't it!?!?!

Really glad the varnish touch ups came out so well.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 08:02:42

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