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Power yields to sail, sail yields to paddle (?!)

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5396 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2010 : 13:31:05

As a member of the US Power Squadron, I received a DVD this week from the National organization entitled "Small Boat Safety Tips".

It provide four 10-15 minute videos describing various small boat safety tips and advice for paddling, small fishing boats, runabouts and wakeboarding. They also did a great demo on drinking and boating. At 0.04 (half the legal limit) folks ran over simulated swimmers, dropped babies overboard and crashed into the dock.

It was apparently produced in Ohio with help from the York Ontario lake patrol. In two or three places there was some discussion of the rules of the road. They said that power boats must yield to sailors under sail, and both power and sail were supposed to yield to paddlers.

I've never heard about that rule - ever! I know in Connecticut, kayaks and canoes have certain state mandated requirements, but have NO STATUS as vessels.

They do not have any more right of way than a seabird in CT. Does anybody know of a jurisdiction where paddlers have any right of way over other boaters?

Any Canadian boaters aware of this?

Bruce Ross
Passage ~ SR-FK ~ C25 #5032

Port Captain � Milford, CT

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 14:30:32

Here's an [url="http://www.paddleboston.com/advice/rulesoftheroad.php"]excerpt from the Rules of the Road[/url] with comments regarding kayaks by a leading kayak manufacturer. The net is kayaks (and I would add canoes, skulls, rowboats, etc.) should stay out of everyone else's way. Around here, I'm often annoyed by paddlers who are in the relatively narrow, windig, very busy channel, with vast expanses of shallow water outside of the channel. This includes 8-man shells as well as kayaks. I have four kayaks and instruct all who use them to stay out of the channel and away from other boats. That includes telling them how to recognize where the channel is--on the Mystic River, the green cans along the west side of the channel and the red buoys on the east.

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islander
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Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 16:47:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At 0.04 (half the legal limit) folks ran over simulated swimmers, dropped babies overboard and crashed into the dock.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Was there any damage to the dock?

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 17:45:13

Dave,
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> " . . . should stay out of every one else's way"<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree and recall your concern when I visited Mystic last year. Whenever I kayak with groups, my advice is to stay clear of the channel, hug the rocks, keep to the shallows, which usually guarantees we should have no trouble with power and sailboats.

But generally, I've found that among the organized paddle clubs (Appalachian Mountain Club, New Haven Hiking Club, ConnYak, ACA groups and US Power Squadron, etc), they've be exposed to education on the Kayak conduct and etiquette. See this online etiquette pub from [url="http://www.connyak.org/Public%20Affairs/Paddlers_Etiquette.html"]ConnYak[/url]

However, one day when the CT and NY/NJ chapters of the Appalachian Mountain Clubs and ConnYak all got together for a trip around the Thimble Islands, we left very little room for other boaters, as we had about 120 paddlers. Some of the anglers got impatient, but by and large, everyone got along pretty well.

Problem is, the average unschooled kayaker generally will not wear a PFD, does not have any safety gear, will not stay out of the channel and tends to give the rest of us a bad name.

Of course, you guys can get even by kicking up a huge wake! It's really a war of attrition.

Scott
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Was there any damage to the dock?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Fortunately, they used a simulated swimmer, a simulated baby and a simulated dock.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9082 Posts

Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 20:05:55

Ya, you should see what I can "kick up" if I really want to!

But I almost always drop down to no-wake speed to pass a kayak. I paddle too.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 03:48:19

We have a number of kayaks in our area and a number of crew teams that I have to stay alert to them since they can come up on you real quick. The main issue I have is not with right of way but just that they are so stealthy, especially the kayakers. You could be just sailing along at 3 kts and if not careful could run one of them over. I try to stay out of their way regardless of the rules. If I see a crew team, I usually have to judge when they start up again after they seem to be resting for awhile or sometimes they do a 180 and head back...I will usually stay clear on the other side of the river or cut my tacks short just to stay away. Only one time did I ever come close to running a kayak over !! I had just taken down my sails and usually there is very few boats coming down the Anacostia River where my Marina is located. It was dusk and noticing that 2 motor boats were coming from the Potomac River making their way to my Marina, I wanted to start up my outboard and make a path to the marina ahead of them, otherwise...no big deal but I would have to wait until they came in. Started up my motor and started and make my way to the marina opening. Then I notice out of the corner of my eye, that there is a kayaker coming down the Anacostia and if I did not alter my direction, I would have hit him. He was barely visible in the dusk and he had no light but then I noticed about 100 feet further away from him was another kayaker and he did have a light that was clearly visible. Anyway, I jusy altered my direction, let him pass and then headed for the marina. I still got in there before the motor boats...they had slowed down a bit...given we now had some traffic clogging the area near the marina inlet.

Edited by - OLarryR on 05/10/2010 03:51:51

DaveR
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 05:41:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> At 0.04 <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bunch of crap IMO. These people probably would have made the same mistakes without a drink. I think if you wake up in a bad mood your mind is more distracted. Or if you're talking on the radio, or if you have to trim a sail...............

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PCP777
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 07:52:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> At 0.04 <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Bunch of crap IMO. These people probably would have made the same mistakes without a drink. I think if you wake up in a bad mood your mind is more distracted. Or if you're talking on the radio, or if you have to trim a sail...............
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed, I have yet to run over a swimmer, drop my baby overboard or run into my dock.

When I sailed at Tabor the crew shells had right of way over everybody.

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windsong
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 09:34:25

.04 is pretty low. Everyone has his/her own tolerance to alcohol. I am cursed with a low tolerance. I probably would be impaired to some degree, though dropping a baby overboard sounds a bit hysterical. I allow my crew to drink, trusting that they know their tolerances level, but I don't drink till the boat is docked or anchored, and then I have what I call, "my ceremonial beer." Oh, how I look forward to that beer! And after that, all bets are off and I catch up to my crew pretty fast.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 11:03:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 ...When I sailed at Tabor the crew shells had right of way over everybody.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's local custom, and is essentially the same here in Mystic--based I guess on the principle of limited ability to maneuver, wide girth (including oars), and sensitivity to wakes. But it's not supported by "the book"--quite the opposite. I just wish they'd use the wide-open shallow water where I can't go. Even their chase boats only draw under a foot.

I'll second the "stealth" nature of kayaks--I've been surprised by them appearing out of anchorage areas into the navigation channel--not unlike the way a motorcycle can surprise a car. Kayakers should be told and reminded that (1) they have no rights and (2) they often do not attract boaters' attention. (My kayaks and paddles are all BRIGHT YELLOW.) That said, it's important for us not to stay fixated on our current heading or a particular boat ahead.

Edited by - on

JimB517
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 11:55:25

It is 100% true that human powered craft have right of way over sail powered craft. However-

Lets see if I can remember: Only New Reels Catch Fish So Purchase Some Often

This is order of Priority

Only = Overtaken
New = Not Under Command
Reels = Restricted in ability to maneuver
Catch = constrained by draft
Fish = commercial fishing (like with nets)
So = Sailing
Purchase = Power
Some = seaplane
Often = overtaking

So the type of vessel you claim to be must be indicated by day shapes or lights.

If those crew boats or kayaks are passing you, you do have right of way, as the overtaken boat has the highest priority of all.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 12:05:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JimB517
 It is 100% true that human powered craft have right of way over sail powered craft.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">HUH?? <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...the overtaken boat has the highest priority of all.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">True--whether a kayak or anything else, if I'm overtaking them, I have to stay away from them. Now, if I'm being overtaken by a big ferry or freighter, I'll fall back on the Law of Tonnage and get the hell out of Dodge!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 05/10/2010 12:08:31

PCP777
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 13:00:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by windsong
 .04 is pretty low. Everyone has his/her own tolerance to alcohol. I am cursed with a low tolerance. I probably would be impaired to some degree, though dropping a baby overboard sounds a bit hysterical. I allow my crew to drink, trusting that they know their tolerances level, but I don't drink till the boat is docked or anchored, and then I have what I call, "my ceremonial beer." Oh, how I look forward to that beer! And after that, all bets are off and I catch up to my crew pretty fast.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's ridiculously low.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 19:48:28

I don't know about all states, but in CT, the limit is 0.08%. It used to be 0.1% but too many people died so they cut it back.

For me, according to body weight, that would be about four beers in a row. I generally don't drink more than 3, as that's when I start to feel it.

Roughly speaking for me, 2 beers is 0.04% and I believe I would be fine at that point. At three beers, I would not want to be captain, especially in tight quarters or in rough conditions.

At 0.08 I would definitely be impaired and if I still had my judgment (which is usually the first thing to go), I would drop anchor and wait a few hours until my BAC subsided back to 0.04 or I slept it off.

I still haven't gotten any word back on paddlers having any rights in any jurisdiction, so I plan to file an erratum back to the US Power Squadron on that statement.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 07:32:32

Let us know... But from all I see, the rules give paddlers (and all human-powered vessels) no rights and no priority. Common courtesy is all they have to rely on, and to get it, they should do whatever they can to stay out of everyone's way. The Rules are mute on human power, and the kayak manufacturer I cited above reinforces this.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 09:15:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It used to be 0.1% but too many people died so they cut it back.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It was actually a major campaign by MADD that established .08 as the federally recommended value and tied availability of federal highway funds to state compliance. I am not opposed to the lower standard since judgement, response to unexpected events, and reaction time degrade a little after even one drink, but it is just another way to blackmail states into relinquishing their rights to the federal government.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 15:14:06

I know when I shouldn't drive (after 3 beers), so I'm really glad the feds and states decided that 4 beers was buzzed enough. Yes, the old expression "politics makes strange bedfellows" remains in full effect.

Is that ever an invitation to hijack this thread!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 15:18:57

Politics makes for some other association.

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islander
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 16:02:21

I for one would like to see a requirement passed that all kayaks, canoes and the like would have to be equipped with a 6-8ft fiberglass pole similar to the pick up pole on a mooring ball and have an Orange or yellow flag on top. Similar to the ones you see on bicycles. They are so low to the water that they tend to disappear behind even the smallest wave.

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Voyager
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 19:02:27

Scott,
Not a bad idea. There was recently a proposal in the CT Legislature to register all vessels, no matter what means of propulsion - similar to what was done in New Hampshire (the "Live Free or Die" state!?) The industry's hue and cry, as well as the populace's reaction, was deafening to lawmakers - so the bill died in committee.

Most kayakers I know insist on having white paddles and some have added reflective tape, since they know that boaters are generally unable to see them, all but the moving paddles. Whenever I'm in tight quarters I swing my paddles and, if needed, blow my 100db whistle attached to my lifejacket.

My boat is yellow like Dave's, but I've seen a lot of dark blue, green and grey kayaks out there. These colors are almost invisible in the water. My paddling jacket is also yellow.

I've seen a few folks with orange fibreglass poles sporting orange flags, and generally while you can easily spot them, they look pretty dorkey.

Basically it means you and I, as captain of our vessels, are responsible for situational awareness at all times while the boat is in motion. Like dodging swimmers (I've seen some long distance swimmers out in the nav channel from time to time), its our job to remain vigilant.

Fortunately, sailors move pretty slowly, so there's generally time for evasive measures. Powerboaters, on the other hand, don't have the luxury of going so slowly. With the massive upturn in kayak sales, while collision stats are still low, the USCG says they have been growing steadily.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 19:48:52

Ohio registers all vessels, including our 9.5' and 11.5 kayaks. It doesn't serve much purpose since you can steal them and sell them in most other states, but revenue is revenue. My wife does have a green kayak, but we do have white and yellow paddles and red and yellow pfds. As for a pole and flag, I'll pass since our moving paddles are much visible and we stay well away from waters that support bigger craft. It's an old song, but you really can't legislate stupidity out of existence. Darwin tries, but they often reproduce before getting kayaks.

Edited by - on

redviking
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 21:36:32

As a former kayaker - I built one in my basement, had to tear down a wall to get it out - and as a former motorcyclist, I know about the laws of tonnage... GTFOOTW... Get the F--- Out Of The Way. Dead people hope for relatives who argue for their right to be in the left lane, or in the middle of the channel.

While I consider paddlers of all sorts to have the right of way, I am a sailing vessel constricted by draft and by my ability to maneuver under duress. A power boat can in fact put the brakes on - almost. I have to do a bunch of stuff to accomplish the same task, Ok it was faster on my C25.

If you think I am going to run outside of a marked channel to give you the paddler room, think again. I will run your ass over, call the coasties and pull you out of the water.

The problem with those who decide to ply the water with these small craft is that they do not have to get licensed. You have to have a license to drive a car, get married, do nails, cut hair, clean teeth or fly a plane, but you can paddle or sail anything just about anywhere. No common sense, no instruction.

And if they wanna play in my world, have a radio on 16, lights, flares, a horn and whatever else I missed.

sten

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