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Questions about teak removal

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John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/06/2002 : 17:54:21

I have recently purchased a 1981 cat 25 that appears to be in excellant shape. It is being stored indoors for the winter and I would like to re-finsh the exterior teak. I would like to know if the wood can be easily removed. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of.

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/06/2002 : 20:12:41

You'll probably want to remove it regardless to reseal it.
I've pulled small pieces of gel coat off using too much brute strength. Now I gently slide/wiggle a putty knife between the gelcoat and the teak.
Be sure to mark the handrails port and starboard, fore and aft so you can match-up the screw holes. Make sure you start the sheet metal screws in the holes when reinstalling else you'll risk cracking/spliting the teak <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> !
Have you chosen a product to stain/seal your teak yet? (that's a leading question John J.)

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 12:56:51

Here I go again, resembling that remark ("Help!" thread).

Whenever I remove something from the deck, I like to redrill the holes oversized, put a piece of tape over the bottom of the hole, fill it with epoxy and, when cured, redrill the original sized hole. Just my attempts to protect the deck core from moisture intrusion.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 18:39:42

"I would like to know if the wood can be easily removed. Are there any pitfalls I should be aware of." - John J.

My exterior teak came off easily, but a lot depends of the kind and condition of the caulk that was used to bed your teak. Here are some helpful hints.

1. Keep in mind that the long topside grab handles are essentially straight pieces that are manually bent(curved) with a little oomph when they are installed. If you are not careful, you can easily damage these pieces when removing them as they spring straight. Use two people when removing and installing them.

2. Insert the companionway sliding hatch into the teak hatch slide rails when you are rebedding these pieces. If you don't you will have to remove one of the pieces to get the sliding hatch in.

3. Use a polysulfide caulk when bedding deck hardware. Additionally, be careful as to how much caulk you are applying, because any extra caulk is going to squirt out from beneath the teak. I masked my teak so when the caulk oozed out it was easier to clean up.

4. Mark all pieces(fore/aft, port/starboard, top/bottom).

5. Keep track of all the mounting hardware so the correct screw is put back in. You don't want to put a long screw into a short teak hole, because you may pop through the teak.

6. When re-installing the teak, be sure to start the screws into the existing holes in your teak pieces to make sure they are going into the holes and not making new holes. You don't want to make new holes with the screws because this old, dry teak may split easily.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - dlucier on 11/07/2002 22:05:57

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RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 19:21:42

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>polysulfide caulk<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

What products have this?

Also, does the caulk go only around where the fastener (i.e. screw) attaches the teak to the fiberglass, or does it go everywhere?

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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jheard
1st Mate

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USA
49 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 20:10:58

Pulling the teak off to refinish it is way overkill. Simply mask off the surrounding areas while sanding and applying finish. Re-mask every day. Use high quality light adhesive (blue) masking tape.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 20:13:35

Here is the page from the BoatUS catalog that shows the three main kinds of caulk; Polyurethane, Polysulfide, and Silicone.

<img src="http://www.boatus-store.com/icatalog/images_c/328_02.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://www.boatus-store.com/icatalog/images_c/328_03.gif" border=0>

From an article on Sailnet by Don Casey author of "This Old Boat".

"Choosing and Using Sealants"

You wouldn't want your bunk located under this leaking portlight, which is classic evidence of a poor caulking job.

When we assemble—or reassemble—the various parts of a sailboat, we generally want the junctions to be watertight. For centuries sailors relied on pine tar for waterproofing. While undeniably effective, tar is also exceedingly messy. Sometime last century tar was replaced for "yacht" use by more civilized petroleum-based compounds. Dolfinite is perhaps the best known of these. Looking and handling exactly like peanut butter, Dolfinite is still available and still useful where adhesion is not desirable.

The problem with petroleum-based compounds, however, is that they dry out, inevitably losing their effectiveness over time. They have been superseded by polymers—chemical compounds that never dry out. Modern sealants, properly applied and left undisturbed, should maintain their watertight integrity for the life of the boat.

So why do leaks occur? The usual cause is mechanical failure, meaning that the bedded components pull apart under strain because of inadequate stiffness or poor attachment. Rebedding provides only a temporary respite; the permanent solution is oversize backing plates and stronger fastenings. The number two cause of bedding failures is insufficient sealant. This we will get to, but first let’s resolve the issue of what sealant you should be using.

The confusing array of sealants and caulks available on today’s market can make one nostalgic for the days when the only choice was pine tar. Relax. Choosing the right sealant is a lot easier than you might think. Marine sealants fall into one of just three categories. Understand what makes each of these the best choice for some jobs and unsuitable for others and you have the selection process bagged.

Let the gooping begin. Modern day marine bedding compounds can work miracles against the many stresses of the marine environment, provided a few simple selection criteria are followed.

Polysulfides - You can and should use polysulfide to bed almost everything. A synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. As a bedding compound it allows for the movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It even adheres to oily teak and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the choice for bedding teak rails and trim. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well. (The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide.)

One caution: do not use polysulfide to bed plastic—as in deadlights, portlight frames, or deck fittings. The solvents in polysulfide will cause acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS, and PVC to harden and split. Only when you know for certain that a plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin can you safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the-waterline through-hull fittings fall into this group, but if you have any doubt, use another sealant.

Polyurethane - Consider polyurethane an adhesive rather than a sealant. Fittings bedded with polyurethane typically cannot be separated without damage, so do not use it on anything you might need to dismantle in the future. Polyurethane is an excellent sealant for hull-to-deck and hull-to-keel joints and a good choice for through-hull fittings, rubrails, and toerails. Do not, however, bed teak rails with polyurethane because teak cleaners damage it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS-based fittings.

Silicone - If you think of silicone as a gasket material instead of a sealant you can proably intuit its appropriate uses. It is the best choice for bedding components that must be periodically dismantled. Its excellent insulating properties make it ideal for bedding dissimilar metals—stainless hardware on an aluminum spar, for example. And it is—by default—the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. However, silicone should not be used below the waterline. And because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is also a poor choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck.

Keep this quick review in mind when you’re considering a bedding compound:

Polysulfide—a sealant suitable for bedding everything except plastic.
Polyurethane—an adhesive that forms a permanent bond.
Silicone—a gasket material and electrical insulator.

The type of surface, and whether the caulk is functioning as an adhesive, as in the case above, or a sealant all play a role in choosing the right material.

Hybrids Normal stresses tend to pull or pry bedded components apart. If the bedding compound is both adhesive and elastic, it will stretch like the bellows joining the two sides of an accordion. Cured silicone sealant exhibits amazing elasticity, but its adhesion is temporary at best. Movement between bedded components tends to break the seal. This is precisely why normal expansion and contraction soon enough lead to leaking deadlights.

Either polysulfide or polyurethane would provide a more dependable seal for deadlights, but polysulfide is certain to attack the plastic, and polyurethane prohibits any future disassembly. One alternative is a hybrid sealant—part silicone and part polyurethane. Marketed by BoatLife as Life Seal, this mixture promises a longer-lasting seal for deadlights and other plastic fittings where compression of the sealant cannot be assured.

It used to be that rebedding was an annual chore, but today if you select the right sealant and apply it correctly, you can do the job once and forget it. Now if the test-tube wizards could just do the same for varnish.

Working the Goo

None of the sealants mentioned above will work well unless you give them a chance. If you crank down on the mounting bolts until you squeeze all the sealant out, you might as well put the parts together without sealant. The correct mounting technique is the same regardless of the sealant you use; follow these tips:

Both surfaces must be clean and dry, which means peeling or scraping away every bit of old caulking and wiping the surfaces with acetone or MEK. If you try to caulk right over the old caulking, it will leak—guaranteed.

Countersink fastener holes. Countersinking the deck allows for a wider bead of sealant around the fastener. In addition, the wedge shape of the countersink makes this "ring" of sealant function much like an O-ring when compressed. This effect is doubled by also countersinking the underside of the bedded component when thickness allows.

"There is no reason to be miserly; the sealant you save is almost certain to harden in the tube or cartridge before its next usage anyway."

Apply the sealant liberally. If it does not squeeze out all the way around the joint, take it apart and do it again. There is no reason to be miserly; the sealant you save is almost certain to harden in the tube or cartridge before you use it anyway.

Mask both components before bedding. If you are using silicone, allow the squeeze-out to fully cure, then slice it free with a razor blade. For the more tenacious poly sisters, smooth the ooze with your finger, then peel the tape promptly to leave a neat edge. Remember to seal around the fasteners. Snug but do not tighten the mounting screws. Compressing all the sealant out of the joint is the most common bedding error and it dooms the effort.

It is essential to leave the components separated by a gasket of sealant. Put the seal under compression. Let the sealant fully cure—this takes a week or longer for most polysulfides and polyurethanes—then go back and evenly tighten all the fasteners. This ensures a watertight seal even if the sealant loses its grip. Turn only the nuts on through-bolts to avoid breaking the seal around the fastener.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - dlucier on 11/08/2002 01:20:52

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 21:00:08

"Pulling the teak off to refinish it is way overkill." - Joshua Heard

I have to politely disagree. It takes very little time to remove and install the teak and, with the teak removed, a higher quality job can be acheived. In a garage one does not have to worry about things such as gnats/bugs landing on fresh finish, dust blowing everywhere, spider and bird crap, unexpected rainstorms, spilling Cetol on the gelcoat, marring the gelcoat while sanding,...etc. Additionally, in a garage one can take all the time necessary to do a quality job without having to pack up everything every day and transport it down to the boatyard, do that days works, then pack up and go home. By removing the teak, I was able to refinish over the winter while my boat was under it's winter cover. Last, but not least, with the teak removed I can put a few coats of finish on the undersides of the teak to prevent moisture from penetrating the teak and lifting the finish.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/07/2002 : 21:13:31

Joshua - I have to agree with Don. To do a good job on the exterior teak INITIALLY, it needs to be off the boat. Then you can get to all the edges and the undersides (especially on the handrails - it is impossible to get to the inside of the curves with the teak in place). When it comes time for touch-ups, I agree that taping, light sanding and cetolling (is that a word?)is possible.
Derek

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 00:53:11

[b]"...cetolling (is that a word?)..." - Derek Crawford

It is now! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Anyway, Derek, I agree that "initially" it is preferable to remove the teak for refinishing and thereafter doing the subsequent touch-ups and maintenance coats on the boat. My teak was severely neglected by the previous owner and was in need of off the boat restoration. The handrail with it's inside curves is especially hard to sand because there is a lot of exposed end grain wood(a Dremel w/flapper wheel sander and a very light hand makes short work of this difficult sanding).

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

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