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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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How Genoa halyard adjusted & secured ?

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jbkayaker
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USA
299 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/09/2010 : 13:52:02

Saturday I was out for a race in 16 knots gusting to 25 knots. I decided to leave the mainsail down and use just my CDI roller furled 135% genoa. The genoa halyard needed to be tightened until the horizontal wrinkles disappear. Pulling the halyard with one hand while trying to tie a knot with the other hand resulted in loosening it. I couldn't do anything with it furled. There is no block or cleat or anything else to help with tightening. The halyard is just tied to a shackle.

I am thinking of adding a block between the halyard and the drum to get a 2 to 1 mechanical advantage. I also need something to help with securing the halyard. What have other people done to enable adjusting the genoa halyard while under way ?

Jim Butler

Edited by - jbkayaker on 05/09/2010 17:16:24

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 05/09/2010 : 14:09:56

I don't think you can adjust the halyard tension on a CDI furler underway. It's not designed for that. You need to get the luff tight at the dock and tie it off on the shackle. You can make some adjustments in backstay tension to reduce the sag in the luff, but that's not where your problem is.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 07:11:14

I would agree with Brooke. Its difficult enough to get a good pull on the CDI halyard when you are docked. Practically impossible when under load. I added a block to mine one time. The block reduced the amount you could actually stretch the luff. It doesn't seem it was designed with the ability to adjust it for maximum performance in mind.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 07:43:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 .... The block reduced the amount you could actually stretch the luff. It doesn't seem it was designed with the ability to adjust it for maximum performance in mind.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I just want to get the wrinkles out so that the draft moves forward and the sail is flatter. Is that what you mean by stretching the luff or do you mean literally stretching the sail fabric ?

I am proposing to add a ratchet block like Item # 615232 from
www.defender.com hanging from the genoa halyard in the upright position shown in Defender's picture. Then run a short line from the CDI drum shackle up thru the sheave and back down to be secured to the same shackle. There is plenty of space for this with my sail. Was your genoa a deck sweeper that occupied practically the full length of the furler ?

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 08:18:23

I used micro blocks for a purchase, I never adjusted underway but I had the tension I wanted at the dock.

Edited by - on

windsong
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Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 09:48:51

As you discovered, adjusting the genoa halyard underway is just not something your CDI furler was built to do.
Why did you feel this was necessary? I've reefed my 110 on the furler many times and never felt the need to tighten the luff. A reefed headsail on a roller furler is just stinking mess from a sail-shape standpoint, which is why so many racers turn up their noses at them as the shoddy inventions of lazy cruisers. Guilty as charged! I'm not sure tightening the luff would do much good. Also, I know many people choose to sail with headsail alone when the wind pipes up, but personally I get better results from a reefed main and less headsail.

Edited by - windsong on 05/10/2010 09:53:29

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 05/10/2010 : 19:03:58

My reason for wanting to tighten the genoa halyard was to flatten the sail, move the draft forward, reduce weather helm (which was significant), and improve upwind performance. With the loose genoa halyard the boat was sliding sideways plus pointing poorly. I was making little progress upwind. A second reefed main and half furled genoa might have worked better. I ordered a ratcheting block today. I'll post the results.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 06:45:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Even Chance
 ....
You flatten (or deepen) the sail underway by adjusting the jib cars. Moving the cars forward will deepen the curve of the sail; moving the cars aft will flatten the sail, just like the clew outhaul on the mainsail. Of course, when you furl the sail, you need to move the cars forward for an equal amount of draft.

You can harden the jib luff/foil and point higher by tightening the backstay.

No one adjusts jib luff in a foil -- do they? That's what hank-ons are for.

It's strange that you had significant weather helm just flying the foresail. Ordinarily, that should produce lee helm, as the boat tries to fall off. Too much main and not enough jib usually produces excessive weather helm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The percentage of luff to leech distance where the maximum sail depth is located is confusingly called "the draft". "The draft" percentage AND its depth need to be controlled to get the optimum sail shape. Tightening a sail's luff moves "the draft" forward, while adjusting the jib cars (or the mainsail outhaul) changes the depth of the draft but has little affect on its relative position between luff and leech. According to the "Improve Your Sailing Skills" video by Coastal Sailing the best mainsail draft position for upwind in a strong wind is 50% back from the luff or the middle of the sail. For a genoa the best position is 40% back from the luff. If the genoa has horizontal wrinkles along the luff in a strong wind then the draft is more than 40% back from the luff and the halyard needs to be tightened.

My non-expert theory on the weather helm (tendency to turn into the wind) is that it was caused by hull shape when the boat was heeled 30 to 40 degrees. With a loose luff 135% genoa the draft position is pretty close to the mast where it doesn't have much leverage to produce a lee helm affect. In short the underwater shape of the heeled hull produced more weather helm affect than the genoa produced lee helm affect. I should have mentioned that I was getting weather helm when gusts made the boat lean over a lot.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/11/2010 : 07:54:30

That is called rounding up and saves your a$$.
If you have wrinkles in your genoa luff then you did a poor job of setting the halyard at the dock. Get it tight.
A 135 does not overlap enough to cause weather helm.
If your headsail is blown out no amount of halyard tension will fix it.
If you are a high wind sailor you should either order a flatter 135 with luff foam to help take the pocket out when you reef or switch sails to a 80 or 90% jib before you go out.
My first 25 used hank on sails and I sailed in high wind a lot. My second had a flat, heavy, 135 and was no fun in high wind at all. If you are going to sail in high wind toss the CDI and get a down-haul for the hank on sail.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 10:36:00

I said a 135% genoa contributes to lee helm but not strongly because the center of effort is close to the mast/keel axis. Moving the draft forward increases the lee helm contribution. The underwater hull shape of the bow when heeled over contributes strongly to weather helm. Net result is significant weather helm when heeled.

Tightening the halyard at the dock doesn't deal with needing a soft billowy sail at the start of a race and a taut flat sail a couple of hours later.

Some will say that I should not race with a furler because they are not perfect solutions. But getting smacked in the face by the hank on sail you are trying to deal with in a breeze isn't perfect either.

My Rolly Tasker high modulus Dacron genoa is less than a year old and not blown out.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 05/12/2010 10:43:26

jbkayaker
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Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 14:26:18

Captain Even Chance,
Your first response of three was useful. Thanks for that one and thanks to the others who made comments.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 05/12/2010 19:14:27

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 19:14:17

Then I will delete the offensive posts. Let me know when you find that jib furler with a luff that can be adjusted on the fly.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 19:17:26

A ratcheting block arrived from Defender.com today. I will be trying it Thursday or Saturday.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 05:33:45

I noticed you're sailing a 99 wing 250 James. I think no matter what you do you aren't going to point and sail windward as well as a fin/swing. Wings are GREAT and I wouldn't trade but pointing is not one of their strong........... points

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frog0911
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1349 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 11:17:28

Having sailed both boats, I would beg to differ with you about a C250W's pointing capabilities. If kept on her feet,15/20 degrees, the C250W will point as well or better than a C25F/SK.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 10:14:33

I tried my silver dollar sized ratcheting pulley on my CDI furler halyard yesterday. It should be standard equipment in my opinion since it makes tightening the halyard so much easier. It at least doubles how tight I can get the halyard because of the mechanical advantage and it eliminates the slippage while I secure the halyard end. Will it help underway ? I think it will enable taking advantage of momentary genoa unloading but that's yet to be tested since the wind was light on Lake Murray yesterday.

Edited by - jbkayaker on 05/17/2010 16:17:48

triley
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251 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 18:00:44

Hank ons--- I hated the pictures with a wrinkled genny! They are mine own wrinkles. I keep wondering about a senior discount, a handicap maybe! Arrrgh!

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 05/17/2010 : 07:42:30

Shame on me; you are trying to race a 250 with a CDI furler in high wind? Good luck with that. We are a high wind local here in Wichita and no 250 has lasted more than a year without being sold. The 5th or 6th in the last 6 years showed up last July, there is a for sale sign on the bow now, all others sold and left, I assume this one will leave too.

A Harken is adjustable on the fly, either pony up or hank down, anything in between is just myopia. Most boat skippers are very myopic, it helps with decisions and conviction but can close one's mind to better information. The implication of a new Rolly Tasker is that you are not a racer anyway so why are you bothering? Crew on a competitive boat and enjoy the races, cruise on your 250 afterwards.

Edited by - on

jbkayaker
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299 Posts

Response Posted - 05/17/2010 : 08:23:58

We race just white sails in the class for Catalina 250's. High wind is not the norm here. Winds were strong in just two out of seven races in our Spring series and I did poorly with my Catalina 250 in those races. Getting a first place in the seven race Spring series must mean I'm doing something right in the less windy races or perhaps my competition didn't put as much into their game as they should have. I've considered jumping into the J-24 class, even took a ride on one. I decided that a serious racing class would take too much effort and expense.

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