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Shoot me straight... how bad is it?

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djdurrett
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124 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/12/2010 : 05:51:59

Okay boys, tell it to me straight: new rudder time? okay for a little while while new one is in the mail or can it be repaired?

"Belafonte"
79 C25 TR/FK #1130
Bay View Marina
Lake Ray Hubbard
Dallas, TX

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5897 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 06:15:48

I repaired one that was in about that condition, and used it on an inland lake for years, but I would never trust it in big seas or rough conditions. I bought a used one that was advertised on our swap meet for $150.00, and kept the old one for a spare. I would fix it for now, and start looking in earnest for a replacement, either used, or new, if you must.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 06:25:04

I wouldn't leave the dock with it because I'm in salt water with tides, currents and waves.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 06:36:49

The core has to be wet and probably rotted so you likely have a fiberglass shell filled with non-structural oatmeal. I would bite the bullet and replace it.

Edited by - on

djdurrett
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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 07:15:33

it is pretty solid and there is no movement in the pintles. I was thinking of grinding off the gel coat and seeing how the wood looks. If good, a little west systems epoxy and glass should get me through the summer, right? (i am trying to be optimistic). It is a fresh water lake boat.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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USA
957 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:11:15

Psshhh, I wish mine looked like that.
Here's mine a year ago, and I still use it in the lake. lol
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/SharkRacer/Catalina/100_3625.jpg

(That's the PO).

Edited by - NautiC25 on 05/12/2010 08:12:44

Happy D
Admiral

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921 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:16:03

Grind out the crack and do a little investigating. Might only be the gelcoat is bad. Remove the pintles and tape a plastic bag over the botl holes. If the bag gets wet onthe inside, the core is wet.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 08:41:49

Hey Darren. Robert Cummins does good work on LRH. His number is 214 341 1626. What is your hull number? Looks like we have the same boat on the same lake. You sailing this weekend? Wind should be 9 to 10 knots and I hope to get out.

http://www.sailflow.com/windandwhere.iws?regionID=118&siteID=367&Isection=Forecast+Graphs

You can try your boat (I bet it will be fine being light winds on a lake) and worse case scenario I could tow you back to Captain's Cove. Do you have a VHF? We monitor channel 69 when cruising. Plus we can trade cell numbers. I have to work Saturday morning but would like to get out Saturday so you can sail with me or we can get both boats out.

If you get in touch with Robert, let me know. I haven't been able to reach him this week.

Edited by - PCP777 on 05/12/2010 08:56:21

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 09:14:52

31 year old rudder that has been compromised? It will break when you need it the most.

Been there, done that...

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 10:37:55

Mine broke. During a boat race.Winds 15 to 20, 150 meters upwind of a reef. The core broke and seam separated leaving me with the lower half of the rudder bent at a 45 degree angle. I was able to round the windward mark (a small island in Lake Superior) with sheets eased, and sail downwind 10 miles to the finish. It continued to hold while I motored another 5 miles to my mooring. The core was actually foam not wood as I originally thought.

Yours doesn't look cracked along the edge that's in the water and may no thave gotten wet inside. I'd grind it out and see if it can be salvaged. Any sign of wetness and I would buy new though.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 10:47:18

Just drill a few deep holes in the leading edge and see what the shavings look like. If they are solid and not wet or rotted you can backfill the holes and epoxy+glass tape the leading edge and order a rudder. Like Don, I have had things break over the years, and the conditions that break things are usually not the conditions when you don't mind broken things.

Edited by - on

djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 11:25:42

PCP777, Hull #1130 at Captains Ghetto. I would love to get out this weekend... let's see how the repair goes. I was hoping to race some on Wednesdays but the sails are in bad shape. The previous owner did not know how to care for and store sails.

I broke some of the gel coat off to see inside. the shell was thicker than I thought it would be. The wood looks OK soft but dry. Going to cut a section of the gel coat off and pour in some penetrating epoxy then go back over with west systems. I will post some photos. It is worth a try anyway!

I have to upgrade the spreader sockets as well. Should I be afraid of the originals? Sure would like to get her out for a sail this weekend!

BTW I have been calling Robert once a day for the past 5 and can't get him. I really wanted to see if he could snap my rudder back together quickly. Oh well, I guess it is the busy season with everyone getting boats ready.

Edited by - djdurrett on 05/12/2010 11:52:26

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 12:02:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djdurrett
 PCP777, Hull #1130 at Captains Ghetto. I would love to get out this weekend... let's see how the repair goes. I was hoping to race some on Wednesdays but the sails are in bad shape. The previous owner did not know how to care for and store sails.

I broke some of the gel coat off to see inside. the shell was thicker than I thought it would be. The wood looks OK soft but dry. Going to cut a section of the gel coat off and pour in some penetrating epoxy then go back over with west systems. I will post some photos. It is worth a try anyway!

I have to upgrade the spreader sockets as well. Should I be afraid of the originals? Sure would like to get her out for a sail this weekend!

BTW I have been calling Robert once a day for the past 5 and can't get him. I really wanted to see if he could snap my rudder back together quickly. Oh well, I guess it is the busy season with everyone getting boats ready.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hey, shall I see if there's room on Joint Venture, a C-27 I'm crewing on for tonight's race? We're looking at using my spin as the wind is about 20knts. I can see if there's room if you want, we have a nice little cookout/after party on Wednesdays as well.

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 12:36:01

Mine looked like that, so I ground out the edges, then ground down the center 1/3 portion of the rudder on both port and starboard sides. The plywood core was wet but seemed hard. I dried it out for a month in the house. Then I reinforced each side with 7 or 8 layers of fiberglass, filled the edges with fiberglass, waterproofed with epoxy, and painted it.

It looked beautiful.

It worked just great for 18 months in pretty heavy seas and strong winds. Then one day it snapped off, right in the middle, when I was beating to windward in 25+ knots of wind heeled over at 30 degrees or so.

I hope my new rudder also lasts 30 years!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 05/12/2010 : 13:23:22

Generally the lower pintle is where they break, due to rot in the wood core that's in the head. (I presume Al's '88 came with the newer model rudder.) On a beat, you'll just round up, and you can use the engine to get things under control and then get home. Sailing downwind, on the front of a wave where the rudder can be stressed, a break can lead to a broach or a sudden, uncontrolled jibe, and difficulty getting under control. I'd stay out of any major wind until you are quite confident of the condition of the core and have repaired the shell. You have a responsibility to your crew to have your boat in safe operating condition.

Edited by - on

djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 12:18:25

Does anyone know if the original rudders were constructed with a "honeycomb" design or are they made with a one-piece wood core? Upon further examination, the core is pretty wet and rotten right between the pintles. I was thinking of soaking with a penetrating epoxy once dry then pack with glass and resin. I was sort of hoping to do this as a temporary fix until I can get a new rudder. I ordered one but the lead time is 6 weeks or more (BOOOOO!)

Edited by - on

Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 12:46:55

Now if it was me

...and I had to wait 6 weeks to receive the new rudder...I would do the repairs as you state and sail the boat in less than intense weather. If the rudder fails you can still maneuver with the outboard. My rudder snapped off at the waterline under the Skyway Bridge, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_Skyway_Bridge , just dropped the sails and motored back to the marina.

I believe it took only a couple of weeks for my new Idasailor rudder to arrive, but in the meanwhile, I still was able to practice my docking routine.

No way would I stay off the water for 6 weeks.

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djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 13:18:56

Don, Is the idasailor rudder class legal? I noticed that the HDPE rudder on Catalina direct which is an "airfoil" design is not class legal.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 13:33:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djdurrett
 Don, Is the idasailor rudder class legal? I noticed that the HDPE rudder on Catalina direct which is an "airfoil" design is not class legal.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Robert said he got in touch with you when I saw him after the races last night. So is he going to look at the rudder?

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djdurrett
Navigator

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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/13/2010 : 13:36:10

He must be thinking of someone else... I have not heard from him. Will call again. How did you do last night?

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Loren H.
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2010 : 12:56:26

Mine looked like that on my '78 when I bought her 10 years ago. Lasted a few years and then snapped in half (between the pintles). Motored back in, went to Home Depot, bought some lag bolts and boards, and bolted the thing back together for more sailing!

That lasted until the new Balanced Rudder showed up from Catalina Direct 4-6 weeks later. My advice? If you plan on keeping the boat long term, go ahead and order the new rudder. Your rudder probably has suffered internal rot and will eventually fail you just when you need it most.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2010 : 13:56:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djdurrett
 He must be thinking of someone else... I have not heard from him. Will call again. How did you do last night?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not so well, the results haven't been published but we were in the middle of B fleet. We had an inexperienced guy working the sheets that really hurt us.

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PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2010 : 14:50:03

BTW, sailing tomorrow looks iffy at best based on the weather update. Looks like no wind and possible rain.

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djdurrett
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124 Posts

Response Posted - 05/14/2010 : 16:09:33

Peter, maybe sunday? do you have my cell?

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Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 05/15/2010 : 13:33:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Don B
 Now if it was me

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Don B
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 05/16/2010 : 07:37:00

It was a 3-4 years ago but looks like this is the rudder I picked..

http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=33&products_id=688

A couple of members on this site had good reviews and Catalina Direct was going to take several more weeks to deliver so I spoke with the reps at Idasailor and placed the order. Don't remember it costing quite as much though.

Handles beautifully! I couldn't believe what a difference in feel and handling. I also replaced my somewhat rounded out gudgeons which made for a nice, snug fit.

Edited by - Don B on 05/16/2010 07:38:46

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