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more questions on teak removal

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John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/08/2002 : 17:38:13

First...THANKS to you who who took the time to respond to my initial question re...teak removal! ( I can't believe what a cool and freindly site you folks have here ). Anyway I successfully removed the handrails sliding hatch rails, no problem. The wood attatched to the sliding hatch appears to be cemented so I'm working on it with a putty knife,( I hope that wasn't a mistake). Does anybody know if the wood around the sides of the hatch is also cemented, or should it come off easily? Also I often see the word "cetol" used as a sealant on this forum, is it a varnish, better than a varnish? I was planning on varnishing after wet sanding with Tung oil.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 18:03:50

"...Does anybody know if the wood around the sides of the hatch is also cemented, or should it come off easily?..." - John J.

If you are talking about the two pieces outboard of the companionway trim, those are screwed on from the outside then the screws are covered with teak plugs. You could locate these plugs and remove them to remove these teak pieces, but what I did was leave these pieces on and refinish them on the boat. These are the only two pieces I didn't remove.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 18:29:24

"Also I often see the word "Cetol" used as a sealant on this forum, is it a varnish, better than a varnish?" - John J.

"Cetol" by Sikkens is a name brand wood finish alternative to regular exterior varnish. It is billed as an easier to apply, longer lasting finish that stands up to the elements better than varnish, but without some of the hassles. Some people have concerns about the pigmentation of this finish, but I used it last year and I think it looks great and I have received many compliments on the finish.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/08/2002 : 19:38:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have received many compliments on the finish.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I'll second that!

Steve Madsen
#2428
OJ (Ode to Joy)

[url="http://catalina25-250.org/photo0.htm/"]<img src="http://www.catalina25-250.org/photo/ode075.jpg" border=0>[/url]

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2002 : 19:13:36

I'll 3rd that!
BTW - on This Side Up the teak "runners" in which the companionway hatch slides are screwed down from INSIDE the cabin - there are 2 rows of screws on each side, one for the handrails and one further towards the midline for the "slides". Originally there was a felt-like gasket between them & the top of the cabin, but it disentegrated when I first removed the runners.
Derek

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frich
Captain

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USA
418 Posts

Response Posted - 11/10/2002 : 20:28:24

I will make it 4 on the Cetol. But I used Cetol light (3) coats, then a final of Cetol gloss., Looks great and ages nicely. Interior i used a water based oil from west marine with a coconut scent. It too looks great.

Good Luck
Frank Rich
84 C25 SK

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deastburn
Captain

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USA
334 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2002 : 16:10:18

While you're doing the teak, here's a suggestion, which makes the cabin a much safer place to be during heavy weather or prolonged beating to windward. Install handrails INSIDE the cabin. Here's the simple way to this fix: Buy a second set of handrails with the same spacing as the current set, but only six "handles" long. While you have the cabintop handrails off the boat, use them as templates to drill through the new handrails (clamp them together, flat surface to flat surface). (You may have to drill out the plugs from the old handrails to remove the srews. If so,it may be worthwhile to sink your hard-earned $ into new handrails allround.) Countersink and counterbore the new rails (for plugs). Buy much longer stainless screws/bolts. When you replace the cabintop handrails, bolt through and attach the new handrails on the inside of the cabin roof. Now you have grab rails inside the cabin. If you wish, plug the screw holes inside the cabin, though this makes future removel harder. You will be amazed at the difference it makes to being inside the cabin when the boat is healed and close-hauled, or when the waves begin to slam into you.

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glmetz
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 07:54:15

I am in the same situation. I have all of my teak off and cleaned, sanded and sealed awaiting final finish. I read in another forum that several people had trouble with 'cetol' saying that it went soft, yellowed and had a tendency to dark streak prematurely. Others preferred the 'Smith' '5 year clear' polyurathane which lasted all of that time. has anyone used it?

Also I have finished the bottom of this, my 1985 25' catalina, boat and polyurathaned the upper hull which now looks beautiful, but need to revive the gel coat deck which has been unattended to for a long time by previous owner.
Has anyone used the 'Island Girl' products for this?

Great forum! Thanks for all your help from the past and future! and to a very familiar fun group!

Greg Metz

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
"Also I often see the word "Cetol" used as a sealant on this forum, is it a varnish, better than a varnish?" - John J.

"Cetol" by Sikkens is a name brand wood finish alternative to regular exterior varnish. It is billed as an easier to apply, longer lasting finish that stands up to the elements better than varnish, but without some of the hassles. Some people have concerns about the pigmentation of this finish, but I used it last year and I think it looks great and I have received many compliments on the finish.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
Catalina
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

greg metz

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John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 11/17/2002 : 09:54:10

Hi Greg, I found a book that deals exclusively with this subject called "BRIGHTWORK" by Rebecca J. Wittman. She does this for a living on many classic boats, the book is great! She recommends wet sanding with tung oil, then varnish, (brands are listed). If you see the pictures in this book , you believe she knows her stuff. By the way, she recommends at least 8 coats of varnish, lightly sanded in between ,which may turn a lot of people off, but I think I'm going this route. If you'd like more info. let me know, I'll be glad to forward it to you. By the way, was your teak on the hatch cemented? How about around the companionway? If so how did you get it off? The board thats on the hatch is really stuck!

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glmetz
Deckhand

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USA
3 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 11:22:06

Thanks all for the input! The trim was stuck and I carefully pryed it off slipping thin metal putty knives under (prying against the metal on the knives so as not to crack the gelcoat) then working them down as I went. It eventually came up with some babying. I did take a little gelcoat with it in a few places. I have decided to but them back on with some clear silicon - a bead around the edges to keep the water out and because it remains flexible. If i have to do it again I can slice the silicon from the edges to pry them off.
John, I wood (sic) appreciate the info on brightwork. could i find it on amazon?

If my wife found out i was putting on 8 coats of varnish on my boat trim... my boat may become a house boat for a batchelor. hmmmm....maybe not a bad idea.
in jest, Greg M
glmetz@utdallas.edu

greg metz

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 11:46:06

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have decided to but them back on with some clear silicon
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Greg, DON"T USE SILICONE! When the day comes to remove these pieces (to redo them with Cetol <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) you'll spend hours and hours peeling the silicone out of the texture of the nonskid. Use polysulfide, you'll thank me later.

The Silicone Police

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/20/2002 : 12:17:12

Greg,

Steve's right about using a polysulfide caulk and not a silicone caulk. The previous owner of North Star used silicone and it was a bear to remove. Additionally, silicone caulks are not recommended for oily woods such as teak. Here is an excerpt from a previous discussion,...

From an article on Sailnet by Don Casey author of "This Old Boat".

"Choosing and Using Sealants"

You wouldn't want your bunk located under this leaking portlight, which is classic evidence of a poor caulking job.

When we assemble—or reassemble—the various parts of a sailboat, we generally want the junctions to be watertight. For centuries sailors relied on pine tar for waterproofing. While undeniably effective, tar is also exceedingly messy. Sometime last century tar was replaced for "yacht" use by more civilized petroleum-based compounds. Dolfinite is perhaps the best known of these. Looking and handling exactly like peanut butter, Dolfinite is still available and still useful where adhesion is not desirable.

The problem with petroleum-based compounds, however, is that they dry out, inevitably losing their effectiveness over time. They have been superseded by polymers—chemical compounds that never dry out. Modern sealants, properly applied and left undisturbed, should maintain their watertight integrity for the life of the boat.

So why do leaks occur? The usual cause is mechanical failure, meaning that the bedded components pull apart under strain because of inadequate stiffness or poor attachment. Rebedding provides only a temporary respite; the permanent solution is oversize backing plates and stronger fastenings. The number two cause of bedding failures is insufficient sealant. This we will get to, but first let’s resolve the issue of what sealant you should be using.

The confusing array of sealants and caulks available on today’s market can make one nostalgic for the days when the only choice was pine tar. Relax. Choosing the right sealant is a lot easier than you might think. Marine sealants fall into one of just three categories. Understand what makes each of these the best choice for some jobs and unsuitable for others and you have the selection process bagged.

Let the gooping begin. Modern day marine bedding compounds can work miracles against the many stresses of the marine environment, provided a few simple selection criteria are followed.

Polysulfides - You can and should use polysulfide to bed almost everything. A synthetic rubber with excellent adhesive characteristics, polysulfide is the most versatile of marine sealants. As a bedding compound it allows for the movements associated with stress and temperature change, yet maintains the integrity of the seal by gripping tenaciously to both surfaces. It even adheres to oily teak and is unaffected by harsh teak cleaners, making it the choice for bedding teak rails and trim. It is also an excellent caulking compound since it can be sanded after it cures and it takes paint well. (The black caulking between the planks of a teak deck is invariably polysulfide.)

One caution: do not use polysulfide to bed plastic—as in deadlights, portlight frames, or deck fittings. The solvents in polysulfide will cause acrylic, polycarbonate, ABS, and PVC to harden and split. Only when you know for certain that a plastic fitting is made of epoxy, nylon, or Delrin can you safely bed it with polysulfide. Below-the-waterline through-hull fittings fall into this group, but if you have any doubt, use another sealant.

Polyurethane - Consider polyurethane an adhesive rather than a sealant. Fittings bedded with polyurethane typically cannot be separated without damage, so do not use it on anything you might need to dismantle in the future. Polyurethane is an excellent sealant for hull-to-deck and hull-to-keel joints and a good choice for through-hull fittings, rubrails, and toerails. Do not, however, bed teak rails with polyurethane because teak cleaners damage it. Like polysulfide, polyurethane should not be used on acrylic, polycarbonate, PVC, or ABS-based fittings.

Silicone - If you think of silicone as a gasket material instead of a sealant you can proably intuit its appropriate uses. It is the best choice for bedding components that must be periodically dismantled. Its excellent insulating properties make it ideal for bedding dissimilar metals—stainless hardware on an aluminum spar, for example. And it is—by default—the only one of the marine sealant trio than can be safely used to bed plastic. However, silicone should not be used below the waterline. And because it depends upon mechanical compression to maintain its seal, silicone is also a poor choice for sealing hardware on a cored deck.

Keep this quick review in mind when you’re considering a bedding compound:

Polysulfide—a sealant suitable for bedding everything except plastic.
Polyurethane—an adhesive that forms a permanent bond.
Silicone—a gasket material and electrical insulator.

The type of surface, and whether the caulk is functioning as an adhesive, as in the case above, or a sealant all play a role in choosing the right material.

Hybrids Normal stresses tend to pull or pry bedded components apart. If the bedding compound is both adhesive and elastic, it will stretch like the bellows joining the two sides of an accordion. Cured silicone sealant exhibits amazing elasticity, but its adhesion is temporary at best. Movement between bedded components tends to break the seal. This is precisely why normal expansion and contraction soon enough lead to leaking deadlights.

Either polysulfide or polyurethane would provide a more dependable seal for deadlights, but polysulfide is certain to attack the plastic, and polyurethane prohibits any future disassembly. One alternative is a hybrid sealant—part silicone and part polyurethane. Marketed by BoatLife as Life Seal, this mixture promises a longer-lasting seal for deadlights and other plastic fittings where compression of the sealant cannot be assured.

It used to be that rebedding was an annual chore, but today if you select the right sealant and apply it correctly, you can do the job once and forget it. Now if the test-tube wizards could just do the same for varnish.

Working the Goo

None of the sealants mentioned above will work well unless you give them a chance. If you crank down on the mounting bolts until you squeeze all the sealant out, you might as well put the parts together without sealant. The correct mounting technique is the same regardless of the sealant you use; follow these tips:

Both surfaces must be clean and dry, which means peeling or scraping away every bit of old caulking and wiping the surfaces with acetone or MEK. If you try to caulk right over the old caulking, it will leak—guaranteed.

Countersink fastener holes. Countersinking the deck allows for a wider bead of sealant around the fastener. In addition, the wedge shape of the countersink makes this "ring" of sealant function much like an O-ring when compressed. This effect is doubled by also countersinking the underside of the bedded component when thickness allows.

"There is no reason to be miserly; the sealant you save is almost certain to harden in the tube or cartridge before its next usage anyway."

Apply the sealant liberally. If it does not squeeze out all the way around the joint, take it apart and do it again. There is no reason to be miserly; the sealant you save is almost certain to harden in the tube or cartridge before you use it anyway.

Mask both components before bedding. If you are using silicone, allow the squeeze-out to fully cure, then slice it free with a razor blade. For the more tenacious poly sisters, smooth the ooze with your finger, then peel the tape promptly to leave a neat edge. Remember to seal around the fasteners. Snug but do not tighten the mounting screws. Compressing all the sealant out of the joint is the most common bedding error and it dooms the effort.

It is essential to leave the components separated by a gasket of sealant. Put the seal under compression. Let the sealant fully cure—this takes a week or longer for most polysulfides and polyurethanes—then go back and evenly tighten all the fasteners. This ensures a watertight seal even if the sealant loses its grip. Turn only the nuts on through-bolts to avoid breaking the seal around the fastener.

Check out this link to the BoatUS catalog page on caulk.
http://www.boatus-store.com/icatalog/C328.asp

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Lake Erie

Edited by - on

John J.
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 11/22/2002 : 05:14:37

Greg, I picked up the book at barnes & noble, Don't know about amazon.

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