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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Operating the head

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/03/2010 : 05:25:42

OK, I know this has been rehashed here a billion times, but what the hey, lets have another go round.

In the 3 years we have had Iris, I have never been able to use the head properly. We have always kept a 1 litre bottle aboard to prime the head. Dump a litre of water in, do your business, pump the handle, and the stuff goes to the tank.

Last night I was cleaning up the boat, and got to the head. Just for fun, I tried to see if I could get it to work properly. I flipped the little lever into the up position and pumped slowly per the instructions. Nothing.

With more vigour, I pumped quickly and heard a little slurping, but still no water in the bowl.

Since I had heard something happening, I went whole hog, and pumping like my life depended on complete with flailing arms and hard breathing, a trickle of water made it into the bowl. A spray of water came out of the nut at the top of the pump piston. Maybe the nut was just loose.

After tightening the nut, it took less flailing to get water moving, but still, some pretty hefty workload.

Also the water in the bowl was never enough to get up into the porcelain bowl - it was just enough to leave a puddle in the plastic pipe fitting at the bottom of the head.

So now I'm wondering - could this just be like the old coleman stoves where you have to put some vaseline or whatever on the seals in the pump? Or should I be looking at the replacement routine. Or maybe just keep the 1 litre bottle handy. Is this a what a joker valve on its last legs does??

A head is cheap compared to a lot of other projects. Messy and ugly, but cheap. Maybe I just replace and not worry about it.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - Prospector on 06/03/2010 05:27:48

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 05:45:13

Have you tried plugging the sink drain(s) before pumping?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 06:46:30

Good idea Dave, but no sink - we have the hanging closet. After reading around, I am thinking of looking at a pump rebuild.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 07:06:03

I don't know Chris, I seem to recall reading that a rebuild would cost more than half the cost of replacement and the labor involved is just nasty. I think I'd be looking for a new head.

What about the sink in the galley?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 07:28:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Good idea Dave, but no sink - we have the hanging closet...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Is nothing else connected to that thru-hull?

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 08:23:17

I had a re-build/new installation choice when I bought my boat several years ago; chose the new installation and the head's been working well ever since (knock on wood.) The installation is actually very easy, and only took me an hour. It wasn't terribly messy either, believe it or not. Just keep some papertowels handy, if you do choose this route, for the minor drainage in the area you're working in as you remove the pipes.

Edited by - on

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 08:42:55

I'm in the process of working on mine as well. Same issues as you, except that I can't get mine to pump out either. I have the Grocco HE in my 83. Recently got the upgrade to HF kit, which was not cheap but still less than half the cost of a new one. Unfortunately, I'm not sure it has what I need to service my pump (thought I'd be killing two birds with one stone). The HE service kit is not easy to find, though. West Marine doesn't carry it, nor could I find it on Groco's own website.

I haven't opened the upgrade kit yet, because I may return it. So, I plan on taking the pump apart first to see what I can see, and see if I can tell if the upgrade kit has what I need to fix it. If not, I'll be calling Groco.

I'll keep you posted on what happens, as you may also be able to learn something from my issues.

Edited by - on

Renzo
Admiral

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USA
621 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 09:08:08

I don't mean to be obvious but are you sure that your thru-hull valve is open? It should be located under the V berth.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 09:34:47

I'm also dealing with this issue and am going to replace instead of rebuild. And thanks Ben for letting me know it's not super messy. The job won't get put off as long now

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4312 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 10:15:21

Replace the head and be done with it. I had the same problem last year and the rebuild kit was like $75.00 at WM and a new head was like $135.00. Took me 45 minutes and I was done. Just make sure your holding tank is empty!

4 bolts, 4 hose clamps, disconnect the old slide in the new, tighten up and your done. And you get a warranty!

If I'm not mistaken there is no warranty on a rebuild kit. The guy at WM said he had several people that had gone the rebuild route and at least one had it fail within a month.

As you said above "A head is cheap compared to a lot of other projects..."

Just do it!

Edited by - on

aeckhart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1709 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 10:31:51

I believe Renzo may have solved your problem since you mention that you "flipped the little lever in the up position", which I take it to mean the lever on the pump. You've neglected to open the thruogh hull valve under the v-birth that allows water to flow into the pump.

If you've done this than take the handle off the pump housing. There should be a "flapper valve" inside which allows the pump to pull water into the bowl from the through-hull and pushwater/waste to the tank. The valve is activated by the "little lever in the up position". It may be stuck closed allowing you to only pump to the tank. I use vaseline on mine to keep it functioning properly.

WARNING! WARNING!If you remove the pump handle, be very careful reseatng the screws. In most heads they are self-tapping screws that strip very easily in plastic. If you strip them you have a leak and an inoperative pump. To repair it, fill the whole with epoxy and redrill.

Edited by - aeckhart on 06/03/2010 10:38:22

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 10:45:26

Wow - this generated a lot more discussion than I thought.

On the inbound side:
The Seacock under the Vee berth is open, allowing water to enter the lines to the pump.
AFAIK there is no other sink or pump on the boat between the head and the seacock. The Galley sink draws its water from the holding tank (or at least I think it does)

On the outbound side:
We pump to our holding tank. Straight shot.

If I were drawing a diagram for this from entry to exit it would go:

Seacock---> head pump---> bowl --->head pump ---> Holding tank ---> Pumpout fitting

Hopefully with some kind of anti-backflow valve between the pump and the holding tank.

I tend to agree with the comments about replace and be down with it, but if this is the cheaper pump kit (the $15 one) it might be worth a shot rebuilding the pump. Seems to me that if the joker valve quit (the expensive rebuild kit) then the pump wouldn't be able to push the muck out of the bowl. At the end of the day though, this isn't a problem worth losing sleep over. The 1 litre bottle solution has worked fine since we bought the boat.

Edited by - Prospector on 06/03/2010 10:46:43

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 10:48:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by aeckhart
 
If you've done this than take the handle off the pump housing. There should be a "flapper valve" inside which allows the pump to pull water into the bowl from the through-hull and pushwater/waste to the tank. The valve is activated by the "little lever in the up position". It may be stuck closed allowing you to only pump to the tank. I use vaseline on mine to keep it functioning properly.

WARNING! WARNING!If you remove the pump handle, be very careful reseatng the screws. In most heads they are self-tapping screws that strip very easily in plastic. If you strip them you have a leak and an inoperative pump. To repair it, fill the whole with epoxy and redrill.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'll give this a try sometime shortly. Maybe I'll even remember to bring the camera to take pictures.

Edited by - on

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 11:19:19

What head do you have? I have a Groco and to be able to just drop a new one right in I'd have to get the same brand. The Cheapest Groco I've found was around $350.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Galley sink draws its water from the holding tank (or at least I think it does)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, it DRAWS from the holding tank, but (on mine anyway) it empties to the same thru hull the head draws from. Should be easy to tell if your thru hull has only one hose going to the head, or if, like mine, it is split in a T with one going to the head and one going to the sink drain.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 11:46:23

Our head draws through the seacock under the Vee berth. Our Galley sink, and Ice box both drain to the thru-hull under the galley drawers. hence the Ice box's innate ability to go into self-cleaning mode whenever we are sailing on starboard tack with the thru-hull open.

Our first tack usually goes like this:

Helm: Prepare to tack
Jib trimmer: Ready!
Main Trimmer: Ready!
Foredeck: Ready!
Snacktician: Dammit, the seacock is under the frying pan...

ETA: We have the Wilcox-Crittenden

Edited by - Prospector on 06/03/2010 11:54:49

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 11:56:46

JudOWNED - don't you have a seacock under your Vee berth? If so, what does it go to?

Edited by - on

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 13:01:19

Sorry, not the Galley sink. The head has a sink. And that drains to the thru hull under the V-berth. The same one the head draws from.

Edited by - on

SEAN
Admiral

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USA
772 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 15:18:26

before you take the hoses apart run fresh water through it , like.. go to the dock and use the hose in the bowl then pump out again ..
that cleans alot of mess ..

i would get a new one over a rebuild if it was close ..

theres a electric one thats both manuel and
electric B)
that sounds nice ..

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 17:02:28

Just to explain... I asked about stopping the sink(s) that drain to the same thru-hull (although apparently Chris doesn't have any) because an open sink drain has often been the culprit, relieving the suction so the head pump fails to prime itself. I presume your galley sink and "ice box" (if you believe that term) drain to a thru-hull under the galley (or at least try to).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/03/2010 17:03:03

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 06/03/2010 : 21:57:36

I had the same problem. I bought a porta potti online for 108. It can be hooked up tp the pump out if I want to go that route.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2010 : 03:32:05

Of course it takes a stinkpotter to bring clairty to me. JudOWNED has th eexecutive option package that includes the sink in the head. Sorry JudOWNED, I have the yeoman edition which includes a hanging locker with a sign in it that reads: For an extra 19.99 you could have put a sink here."

Actually, we specifically looked for a boat without the second sink, preferring to have the stowage space. Its a short walk to the galley.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3477 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2010 : 04:36:03

I put in a new head and it works great, however I have to pump pretty quickly to get the suction going, bring the water up and get it primed. Mine has the "T" fitting at the seacock to the sink, and the strainer was in tight.

I tried to rebuild the connections at the bottom of the sink and found the plastic to fail, could not tighten the fitting, the plastic threads were stripped and not airtight. I ordered a new sink fitting, at the bottom from Catalina Direct. It comes with a new strainer also. It was inexpensive, and the fittings under the sink are easy to get to.

Edited by - on

JudOWNED
1st Mate

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USA
98 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2010 : 05:50:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have the yeoman edition which includes a hanging locker with a sign in it that reads: For an extra 19.99 you could have put a sink here."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

lol

I'm still curious what brand head you have currently installed there. Do you know?

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/04/2010 : 09:15:01

JudOWNED - Its the Wilcox Crittendon Head-Mate, IIRC.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/05/2010 : 20:38:16

I don't know how a C25 head is typically piped, but I think your problem may be air being pulled into the anti-siphon vent valve. If so, a new head will not fix the problem.

Every proper head installation should have a gooseneck with anti-siphon vent that goes above the waterline. This prevents water from siphoning into your bilge and sinking your boat. If this gooseneck/vent are on the suction side of the pump (and they often are), then you're likely pulling air through the vent, which breaks your prime and causes you to get no water unless you pump really hard. For this reason, many recommend putting the gooseneck/anti siphon on the pressure side of the pump, i.e., between the pump and the bowl. This is harder to hide since it's right next to the bowl, and many head models do not accommodate it because the "pipe" from the pump to the bowl is molded into the ceramic. But for heads that will accommodate it, it has the benefit that it does not break the prime because water is pressing out instead of air sucking in. And because water is so much more viscous than air, it does not leak through the anti-siphon vent. (Much like the anti-siphon vent on most outside household faucets.)

But despite the performance problem, most manufacturers continue to put the anti-siphon vent on the suction side of the pump because it is easier to hide behind a bulkhead.

Another modification I've heard of involves an anti-siphon valve that you can press with your thumb to make a temporary seal through which air cannot leak. This allows a good prime for when you want to fill the head with water.

I had once found some schematics describing this on the web, but I cannot find the right search terms right now.

FYI, my C250 (with upgraded marine head) has the gooseneck on the suction side of the pump, but I don't like opening the intake seacock. So on the very rare occasion we use the head (actually never so far, except for testing) we just pump some fresh water in a cup and dump it in the head. The cup stays in the head sink for this purpose. The pump always stays on the "dry" setting, and we don't have to contend with air leaking through the anti-siphon valve.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/05/2010 20:43:00

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/06/2010 : 18:42:15

Thanks Rhythemn Doc. We have been doing the extra water to prime the bowl since we got the boat. Today, after an amazing sail, I tried the pump, and it worked like it was meant to. Maybe I just had to get the prime past the airlock. I'll keep trying it.

Edited by - on

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