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Boom Positioning for Newbies-redux

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dflynnatc
1st Mate

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Initially Posted - 06/07/2010 : 05:20:06

have read <http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19907&SearchTerms=gooseneck,> with reasonable understanding. However, my question, while similar, has different puzzlement.

SR boom height for REEFING and TOPPING LIFT: I have the original sail for the C25 so I know that it is the right sail. Several weeks ago, my resident ECM & retired buddy who teaches sailing helped me (read, I helped him) step the mast, tune the mast, decipher and assemble the running rigging.

Yesterday, after lessons on reefing, we were going to head out, First , the sharpie identifications on the mast from PO didn't allow the reefing tack to reach the rams horn; and the sail cars would fall out the mast slot. Thusly, we raised the gooseneck/slugs until it made sense and could reef etc. BUT THEN, the permanent topping lift, appeared correct but the temporary topping lift was below the permanent. If we use the TTL, then the PTL will not be attached to the boom end - which has two holes - apparently for both the PTL and TTL.

Are we doing something wrong? Am I correct that we shouldn't have to purchase the slot plate to allow the boat to function in it's original configurations? Also, I have seen some brochure and other older pics that show the boom canted upward, not downward.

BTW first time out with sails up! Winds were in the high teens and waves a bit on the aggressive side for me. It was quite an experience....
First attempt at posting picture enclosed.

Dennis Flynn
1979 C-25 SR/SK
Hull 1042
Rock Hall,MD
Via
Skippack, PA

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 05:47:16

I'm not sure what you mean by Permanent and Temporary topping lift but, I think you're referring to the topping lift (the line attached to the end of your boom) and the pigtail (the line attached to the backstay) in your photo. The two are redundant. Since you have a topping lift, I would never use the pigtail. There's a risk, albeit slight, that you will someday raise the main before disconnecting it and that could have serious consequences. Never sail with the boom attached to the pigtail.

A mast gate is pretty standard on the mast slot. It prevents exactly what you described. It sounds to me like you reefed the mainsail by raising the boom. While this certainly reduces sail area, it raises instead of lowers the center of effort on the sail. Not what you want when reefing.

Did you mean your first sail or first sail on this boat? Winds like you described may have been a bit too much for your first sail but I admire your courage.

It might be helpful to select a smaller photo size. Somewhere between the thumbnail size and the size you've chosen would be great.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/07/2010 05:49:35

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 06:08:17

I agree with all the above except for the pigtail. I attach the pigtail between sails as insurance -- it keeps the boom from falling just in case the topping lift fails, and also keeps it from swinging side to side in case the mainsheet slips. Yes, it's redundant if you have a topping lift, but Murphy's Law hasn't been repealed quite yet.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 06:32:39

I forgot to mention that your topping lift should be slack while underway. I understand the belt and suspenders approach Brooke. I'm just forgetful sometimes and I'd likely forget the pigtail on precisely the wrong day.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 07:19:32

John,

RE: PIcture... makes sense.... way too big.

Re: Pigtail - I think Pigtail would have been the better terminology that I have seen here at the forum, but my Sail-buddy/Instructor refers to it as the TTL - and as he explains; so that when at dock, if the boat requires, one can get the boom up out of the cockpit.

RE: First sail - yes to BOTH. But what is not explicit here is that I am extremely fortunate that my Sail-buddy/Instructor is an very experienced sailor/instructor. That being said, I must have questioned him once or twice wether or not he was _sure_ we should be going out. Because my experience to this point in my life was that the power-boaters that I have had the pleasure of traveling with would have not gone out or have been coming in. Also, self admittedly he is puzzled by the rigging because it was not apparent if things had been altered along it's 3 decade life and regularly sails on boats of -shall we say- a bit less vintage.

RE: Reefing, with the boom in the previously identified (PO with sharpie pen) we lowered the mainsail but could not get the primary reefing tack to the reefing horn/hook. Raised the boom and inch/two but the cars fell out the slot. Then, ignored previous identification and identified the point on the mast where we could get the reef tacks on the hook and not have cars fall out the slot. But after the sail it appeared the pigtail was then useless.

But if you are saying that is a redundant fall restraint, rather then a primary lift to get the strain off the Topping Lift between sails and or raise the boom up out of the cockpit, then we probably have the gooseneck/boom in the correct location.

So what do you do with the pigtail? Just attach when at dock just in case Topping LIft fails?

Edited by - dflynnatc on 06/07/2010 07:29:26

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 07:22:37

IMHO, Catalina's original setup for reefing was sketchy at best, and mast gate plates are indeed needed to get it right--unless the sail has a bolt-rope instead of slugs, in which case the bolt-rope needs to slide out for reefing. I didn't have a reef-hook or ram's horn--that was probably added to your boat.

Regarding the boom angle, my experience (with a replaced sail) was that if the luff (forward edge) is fully tensioned, the boom angles slightly up from the mast. Without the tension, I suppose it could angle down. Tension can be applied by the halyard, but I didn't have a winch for that. So in heavier winds (calling for more tension), I first hoist the sail and then pull down on the downhaul--a line from the bottom of the gooseneck to a cleat at the base of the mast. With enough of a tug, I could often get the gooseneck 6"+ lower. As John said, the topping lift should be slack with the sail up, although it can be made adjustable so it holds the boom anywhere you want when the sail is furled--you just need to be sure to slacken it for sailing.

When you say "temporary", do you mean the "pigtail" attached to the backstay? I've been on the anti-pigtail side ever since I forgot to release it once, not long after we bought the boat. My topping lift was very unlikely to fail, and I made it adjustable. Furthmore, a rigger advised against the pigtail, so when I got new standing rigging from Catalina Direct, that was omitted.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/07/2010 07:26:09

limey156
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 09:00:36

dflynnatc, i went out yesterday too from bodkin creek, which is directly across the bay from you! the weather was a little sporty, for sure. we had a good time though, and got in before the rain showed up.

i attempted to reef the main but i need to re rig the lines as we have the TL and rear reefing line mixed up at the end of my boom. also got my furler line tangled at the base of the drum pulling out the jib too fast so i couldnt put away my 150% genoa, i had to run up to the foredeck and drop it like a hank-on and secure it on the foredeck in the increasing winds, till we could get in and untangle it all :(

i want to run all my lines back into the cockpit, I have a lot to learn and set up on this boat before i can single hand...

I came across the bay the other weekend and had lunch at harbor shack, maybe we should meet up sometime and check out each others set ups. i just got Sun Dancer the other month so i am learning/setting it up too.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 09:32:29

I only use the pigtail when my sails are down. I detach the pigtail before I raise the main sail and Ialso allow some slack in my main sheet. This is insurance so that I am not caught off guard by wind when the sail is raised. If I were to raise the sail with the pigtail attached, the boom would not be able to fall off to the leeward side as it would naturally do. This is especially important as I oftentimes single handed sail and I want the main to raise easily with no wind getting caught in it and also if a gust was to come, the main will go to leeward spilling the wind. In most cases, raising my main is uneventful with no upset wind events but then again, since the main sheet is adjusted to allow the boom to travel to port or starboard about 30 degrees or so, the main is fairly easy to raise and not experiencing much lean to the boat.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 09:48:42

The only purpose of the pigtail is to hold the boom up and centered over the cockpit when the sail is down. As others have stated, it should be released before raising the main, and not reattached until after the main has been lowered. Secondarily, it does also take the tension off of the topping lift. When we release the pigtail, the topping lift takes over to hold the boom up until the main has been hoisted. We usually reattach the pigtail just before flaking the main after sailing.
If you have the topping lift properly installed, you could simply ignore the pigtail with no ill effects. However, I would suggest securing the end of the boom to the stern rail to keep it from swinging in the wind.

Edited by - dmpilc on 06/07/2010 09:55:21

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 09:48:43

Dave, if as you surmise, the Hook/Horn was not an original equipment item, that could help explain the peculiarity. However, re: Pig Tail; I tend to be a form follows function person and as you have omitted it on your boat with no ill effect, what is/was it's TRUE original function? Just the redundancy?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 When you say "temporary", do you mean the "pigtail" attached to the backstay? I've been on the anti-pigtail side ever since I forgot to release it once, not long after we bought the boat. My topping lift was very unlikely to fail, and I made it adjustable. Furthmore, a rigger advised against the pigtail, so when I got new standing rigging from Catalina Direct, that was omitted.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 09:57:40

Seems to make sense to me... buy if you look at my picture, If as we surmise we have the goose-neck and boom at the right height, then we would have to take the topping lift - Off - to allow it to relive the strain as the Pigtail is 16" lower then the TL. If we attached both, as, I ended up doing, the pig tail is slack until the boom may sway if the mainsheet were released. Thoughts?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Secondarily, it does also take the tension off of the topping lift. When we release the pigtail, the topping lift takes over to hold the boom up until the main has been hoisted. We usually reattach the pigtail just before flaking the main after sailing.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 10:07:00

When we were out this weekend in my STD rig boat, I had th eboom lowered almost down to the cabin top. In light wind, I want it as high as possible to get more heel into the boat.

Are you sure you were sold an original sail with the boat, and that it was never cut down or anything? If another sail was subbed for th eoriginal, your settings could all be junk.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 10:46:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dflynnatc
 Dave, if as you surmise, the Hook/Horn was not an original equipment item, that could help explain the peculiarity. However, re: Pig Tail; I tend to be a form follows function person and as you have omitted it on your boat with no ill effect, what is/was it's TRUE original function? Just the redundancy?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 When you say "temporary", do you mean the "pigtail" attached to the backstay? I've been on the anti-pigtail side ever since I forgot to release it once, not long after we bought the boat. My topping lift was very unlikely to fail, and I made it adjustable. Furthmore, a rigger advised against the pigtail, so when I got new standing rigging from Catalina Direct, that was omitted.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The hook/horn was not original equipment. I bought my 1981 C25 new, and it was not a factory option.

The pigtail was a simple, functional topping lift, but it did have a way of reminding you, abruptly, if you forgot to disconnect it when you raised the mainsail. Nevertheless, I added an adjustable topping lift later. The drawbacks to the pigtail were that it wasn't adjustable, and it didn't permit the boom to swing freely from one side to the other. That permitted you to raise or lower the mainsail, even when the boat wasn't headed directly into the wind.

I always hooked up my pigtail when I finished sailing. The line that I used for my topping lift was of minimal size and strength, to minimize windage and weight aloft for racing, and I didn't trust it to support the boom through storms, etc. The pigtail was very strong.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:05:54

I finished the day at Harbor Shack as the sprinkle turned to downpour. We had good timing for sure. Just got mine in April, not sure when I will be ready for the cross; if you plan on coming over again, give me a shout and would love to see another C25 in action. There is a public dock down from Harbor Shack, right in front of the Waterman's Statue. How long did it take you for the cross?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by limey156
 dflynnatc, i went out yesterday too from bodkin creek, which is directly across the bay from you! the weather was a little sporty, for sure. we had a good time though, and got in before the rain showed up.

I came across the bay the other weekend and had lunch at harbor shack, maybe we should meet up sometime and check out each others set ups. i just got Sun Dancer the other month so i am learning/setting it up too.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - dflynnatc on 06/07/2010 15:32:24

limey156
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:11:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> How long did it take you for the cross? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:12:27

I believe it is original in that it has the Catalina Markings and has my hull number on the sail. Reasonable? or would an aftermarket/custom be endowed with same?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Are you sure you were sold an original sail with the boat, and that it was never cut down or anything? If another sail was subbed for th eoriginal, your settings could all be junk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:16:19

I may be wrong , but my twenty plus years sailing a C25 tells me that there are only two instances when boom height is an issue and both have to do with the boom ends. First, excessive wrinkles in the luff of the main that cannot be removed by halyard adjustment can be removed by use of a cunningham. Second, when running downwind and the boom is let out, the boom end has a tendancy to rise causing reduced sail area. This is corrected by tightening the vang. These are sail performance issues. An additonal safety issue is downwind boom control with a preventer to prevent an accidental, and possibly fatal, violent jibe.

When under way the topping lift is used to support the boom end when shortening sail. The rigid vang on my boat does the same only safer, in my opinion.

I use the pigtail twice a season, when I'm installing the boom and when I'm removing it for storage. The pigtail supports the boom end while I connect or disconnect the gooseneck.

There may be some other obscure reasons for adjustng boom height, but none others that I can think of for sail control or saftey.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:25:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dflynnatc
 I believe it is original in that it has the Catalina Markings and has my hull number on the sail. Reasonable? or would an aftermarket/custom be endowed with same?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Are you sure you were sold an original sail with the boat, and that it was never cut down or anything? If another sail was subbed for th eoriginal, your settings could all be junk.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It could be, but you wouldn't have a smaller replacement sail made - it would make more sense to keep th eproper size an dput in extra reefing points. Look to other solutions.

When you order a sail you can have whatever numbers and markings put on it you want. Race comittees the world over will hate you, but you can do what you like.

Edited by - on

limey156
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 11:25:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dflynnatc
 How long did it take you for the cross? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

the day we went over there was NO wind so we ended up motoring across and back maybe 2 hours each way?

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 15:36:54

RE: Cross and Gas consumption? Outboard/Portable Gas tank? How much fuel do you suppose you consume per hour? Did you need to refill prior to return trip?

 How long did it take you for the cross? [/quote]
the day we went over there was NO wind so we ended up motoring across and back maybe 2 hours each way?
[/quote]

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 16:15:16

FWIW, the luff length of a standard rig main should be 24.60 ft., while the tall rig luff length is 27.66 ft.
Dennis, from the pic it looks like you have a wire topping lift which probably goes to the masthead and down the mast to a cleat. I would ignore the pigtail.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 18:51:28

Steve, what is the purpose of having an adjustable topping lift?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Nevertheless, I added an adjustable topping lift later.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks....

Edited by - on

cks
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 19:09:56

My answer to the original question at hand is to leave the bottom two slugs out of the mast slot. I feel that I have minimal problems by doing this. (I don't race) When you reef, you can bring the reef tack down without touching the remaining slugs.

The right answer of course is to buy a mast gate, but above works for me.

BTW, instead of a rams horn, you may want to figure out a way to cleat off a reefing line to the mast - look at a jiffy reef set-up.

Edited by - on

Even Chance
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 19:11:31

I don't think anyone answered this . . . topping lifts weren't included on C25's -- at least through 1985, when mine was made. So, the pigtail was pretty important, to hold the boom up when sails were dropped. Yes, topping lifts make the pigtail somewhat redundant.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/07/2010 : 19:12:36

I just had another thought - if you search th eforum for pics of other folks out cruising you should get a feel for how high up their boom is on the mast. That may help you figure things out on your boat.

Edited by - on

dflynnatc
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/08/2010 : 03:20:25

Thank you all! : You have helped me formulate that we are probably on the right track (literally and figuratively) but have some tweaking to do; and that mast gates couldn't hurt.

Brooke, so that means my Topping lift was a later modification by owner(?) If that is correct, then the pig tail _does_ make sense.

Thanks

dflynn

Edited by - dflynnatc on 06/08/2010 03:27:34

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