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Is this as bad as it looks?

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Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/30/2010 : 19:25:37

I just got this boat and pulled it out of the water to work on/restore. It is a 1979 model. While things looked good, the people that hauled the boat out said that the keel wobbled a bit. Looking at it there is a smile. But after cleaning the bilge and taking out the waste water tank, I uncovered this. It seems that the fiberglass in the bilge is cracked and also in the locker. Is this really as bad as it looks, and is this restorable, and is so does anyone have any pointers.
Thanks.
Jan

Jan Briede
Beagle
1979 TR #1242 FK
L-Dinette
Yorktown, VA
Blog -- http://vanomad.blogspot.com/

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 04:25:43

Hi Jan,

First, let's be sure we're on the same page here. The upper photo is looking straight down into the keel stub of a fin keel Catalina 25, aft to our left. The lower photo is looking down into the bilge at the front of keel, compression post to the left. And the dark areas of the upper photo and far right lower photo are rusted keel bolts. Right?

It's hard to say from here how serious the cracks just ahead of the keel are. While working on the hull around the head of my swing keel trunk (same area as your cracks), I got the impression the factory wasn't as diligent about maintaining a high fiber ratio there as elsewhere in the hull. Too much resin can result in brittleness and/or cracking. It would be a good idea to inspect for similar cracks near the aft end of the keel. A hard grounding at speed tends to pull down on the front keel attachment, while pushing up where the aft end of the keel meet the hull. Also, if the boat was anchored where wave action was causing the keel to bump hard bottom, that could put excessive stress on the keel attachment area of the hull.

How serious the cracks are, and what to do about them, depends somewhat on how much fiber strength remains. It would be interesting to know how much the cracked area flexed as the lift lowered the weight of the boat onto the keel during haulout and blocking. And what they meant by "the keel wobbled a bit."

Another thing I suggest you check down there is the horizontal area the keel bolts to. As I understand it, there was originally a plywood core there, which is prone to water damage. If the keel bolts need to be sistered or replaced, then would be a good time to get any plywood out of there, and replace it with fiberglass and epoxy layup.

The cracks in the lower section of the compression post may not be an immediate problem. Check for rot by probing it with something sharp, like an icepick or thin screwdriver. Shame on Catalina for putting wood where it could soak in normal levels of bilge water. They were generally pretty good about keeping wood out of the bilge water.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

cks
Navigator

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126 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 05:22:01

It seems to me that you would benefit from a professional survey. Two things from my surveyor when i purchased:1) the "catalina smile" in itself is not a big deal and does not necessarily mean an unsafe/unstable keel (you can gooogle this and read for yourself) 2) the surveyor may be able to sound out the hull(usually done by tapping it with a hammer) and look for hollow spots which may mean that there is trouble under the fiberglass. I had such a problem and it was resolved by actually drilling a hole through the core and inspecting it (mine was fine). It cost me $350 for the survey and i think a $200 for the drilling and repair.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 07:19:50

A fixed keel shouldn't "wobble a bit". I'd be worried but, my wife would tell you that's just my nature. I believe you have a cast iron keel and rust on the keel bolts likely extends to the keel. The catalina smile has probabl allowed water behind the fiberglass. I might drill a couple of small holes through the fiberglass at the base of the keel and see what comes out.

Sorry, Jan, but I think you have an expensive road ahead just to find out IF she's repairable.

I'd never sail a "fixed" keel boat that wasn't firmly "fixed". That is, one that "wobbled a bit".

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 08:49:42

Adding to Leon's comments, I do believe there's wood in the base of the keel stub. That might explain the cracking--if the wood is deteriorated, it won't support the inner layer of fiberglass, so the keel bolts will pull down until the glass cracks. That would also explain the "wobble" as well as the smile. This is not minor--when a ballasted keel falls off a sailboat, the boat capsizes and very likely sinks almost instantly.

I've preached many times my belief in the value of a pre-purchase survey, even for a "real steal", especially if it's too big to bury in your back yard. The surveyor almost certainly would have seen this, a moisture meter would have verified the cause, and you could have run, not walked, away...

But all might not be lost--I suspect you'd need a professional to cut away that cracked layer, pull out the rotten wood, and as Leon said, lay in several layers of laminate--possibly including something like a piece of Nida Core or similar composite stiffener. Then you'll need a new set of keel bolts threaded into the cast iron. Get a quote and decide whether it's worthwhile, given your purhcase price and the expected resale value, and comparing to taking your chances on another boat. If you decide the latter..., well, back to my sermon.

Good luck--we all feel for you!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2010 : 09:52:17

I've told our story before... Not sure if it needs telling again. At close to 5 knots we hit a rock and it ripped a fist-sized chunk of epoxy & resin from the leading edge of the keel. No other damage to the boat. We had the repair done by a reputable marina in town after sailing for the rest of the season.

Some friends of ours in an O'Day had a similar hit, and tore the keel and all FG surrounding it out of the bottom of their boat. They lost the boat in under 3 minutes from time of impact, along with everything on board.

Make your boat as strong as the one you would have wanted to be in in that situation.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1776 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 13:18:29

Much has already been said, but I would get a survey ASAP. Talk to whomever does the survey about the observations, etc. Based on the survey THEN decide the course of action. Many times the projects that look to be the worst end up being relatively easy to remedy while the minor ones end up being impossible to resolve. You may have a good boat that needs some serious but doable keel work. Then again, the rest of the boat may have issues that quite frankly lead to the unpleasant decision to part her out rather than restore her. The most important issue for you at this juncture is to get the best available information possible and that requires a good, thorough survey.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 14:33:30

The C25 keel bolts are set into the top of the keel. Then they penetrate through a layer of fiberglass, through a layer of plywood, through another layer of fiberglass into the bilge, where the nuts are threaded onto them. When water penetrates into the space containing the plywood, the plywood delaminates, and it becomes mushy and loses the strength needed to support the keel.

One good quality of the C25 is that almost anything is repairable or replaceable. Catalina has drawn diagrams and instructions for replacing the plywood in the keel stub for a C27, and the job is virtually identical to the way it's done on the C25. I haven't done the job, but I have seen the instruction sheet, and am sure you can get it from Catalina upon request.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 15:30:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 The C25 keel bolts are set into the top of the keel. Then they penetrate through a layer of fiberglass, through a layer of plywood, through another layer of fiberglass into the bilge, where the nuts are threaded onto them. When water penetrates into the space containing the plywood, the plywood delaminates, and it becomes mushy and loses the strength needed to support the keel.

One good quality of the C25 is that almost anything is repairable or replaceable. Catalina has drawn diagrams and instructions for replacing the plywood in the keel stub for a C27, and the job is virtually identical to the way it's done on the C25. I haven't done the job, but I have seen the instruction sheet, and am sure you can get it from Catalina upon request.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve, Catalina sent me the instruction sheet last year when we were contmplating our repairs. I forwarded them to teh tech editor (John??) and they should be in the association archives someplace.

FWIW, these repairs do not spell the end of the boat at all. In our first cruise of the season (from launch to our home slip) I sustained speeds over 8 kts for 10 minutes by GPS. I can't explain that. No weather helm, no neutral (surfy) helm, just solid, consistent performance on a steady breeze. Our boat has never sustained speeds like that before, and I still don't think its really possible to exceed hull speed, but I can't find any explanation other than the work done on the keel over the winter, and care in rigging the boat this spring.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 16:33:10

Calculated hull speed is an approximation. Something close to 1.2 is usually used for sailboats because the multiplier for most boats falls in the 1.2 - 1.4 range, but outliers can be as low as 1 with an upper limit close to 2. WL also varies a little with the angle of heel; it isn't the bow to stern WL, but the length of hull in contact with the water surface that determines the crest to crest distance and hull speed. Less turbulence can mean lower and smoother bow and stern waves that might let you go a little faster without actually having to ride over the bow wave and plane.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/01/2010 : 19:56:46

Yes, but you aren't reaching 8 in a C-25 unless you're pushing up over your bow wave, which is perfectly achievable on a reach--I've come close with a less-than-perfect bottom. When you see water spraying off the hull about amidships and a nice rooster-tail off the rudder, you're doing it!

Scuse me--I fell for a hijack...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/01/2010 21:08:43

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 09:06:51

Jim Baumgart and I were able to do 9 knots in Indiscipline, his Cat 25, going downwind with a spinnaker at a race last year off of Ensenada. However, we were surfing the tops of the waves most the time.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2010 : 10:00:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Yes, but you aren't reaching 8 in a C-25 unless you're pushing up over your bow wave, which is perfectly achievable on a reach--I've come close with a less-than-perfect bottom. When you see water spraying off the hull about amidships and a nice rooster-tail off the rudder, you're doing it!

Scuse me--I fell for a hijack...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry for the hijack, and lets get back on topic, but you just described my sail almost perfectly. On a broad reach, bow wave was coming up over the boat just about at the mast. Bottom 1/2 of the sail was soaked through but I was bone dry. Awesome sail. its on my blog after a woeful hiatus.

Back to keel repairs now...

Edited by - Prospector on 06/02/2010 10:04:11

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 06:43:22

Took my hole saw and took part of the cracked fiberglass out to take a look. Yes there is plywood down there and yes it was moist. In pretty good shape though. My first impression now is to cut the entire cracked piece out and let it dry, after which I would cover it again with fiber glass. Not sure, but I would love to put a keel bolt or two (more) in, and I wonder if it would be ok to drill through the area that has gotten wet, after I put the glass back on. Also, I assume that I need to dry it out completely before glassing it. Any thought on that, out here on the forum?
Thanks.
Jan

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 08:08:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jan Briede
 . . . Not sure, but I would love to put a keel bolt or two (more) in . . .
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Whew, I wouldn't want to arm wrestle with you!

JimB hired someone to put new keel bolts in his boat - they brought a drill press type device into the main salon to accomplish this!

Edited by - OJ on 06/09/2010 08:09:59

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 11:02:13

Catalina Direct has a kit for adding bolts, including a very long drill bit, the tap, stainless all-thread rods, etc.

I would certainly let the wood dry thoroughly, test it for solidity, and then maybe slather it with penetrating epoxy. Then add several layers (?) of glass/epoxy laminate (see West Systems' Fiberglass Boat Repair Manual). Make that layer thicker than whatever you cut out. Any holes for new bolts should probably be over-drilled down to the iron, filled with epoxy, and the re-drilled, to protect the wood and reduce potential compression. You should assume there will be water in the bilge on top of whatever work you do, from rain leaks or whatever.

But first I'd get a professional opinion. This is a big, important job.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/09/2010 11:04:30

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 11:44:39

You might also check out Git-Rot from Boat Life - been around for decades - very effective.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 12:10:32

No offence Jan, but I really think you need a better second opinion than we can give you on an internet forum where we can't see the degree of saturation, the rot, or the stressed fibreglass.

I really hope you can just replace the plywood and put in new bolts, but if the advice you get here is wrong, the outcome could be very bad. I would really suggest haing a surveyor or yard look at the damage before you do any work.

Can you repair this? Probably. But other solutions may present themselves when a pro is showing you what they would do, or what actually needs to be done. What you are contemplating sounds a lot like curing the symptoms without knowing the cause.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2010 : 20:12:03

I'll second Prospector's suggestion. This is a major, critical structural element of the boat. As I said before, a lost keel likely leads to a very quick capsize and sinking. It took a marine architect to come up with the proper structure (using Frank Butler's design), and it's probably not a good idea for an amateur to assess or revise this structure.

Edited by - on

Jan Briede
Navigator

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USA
162 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 06:00:02

Thanks everyone. I will definitively get help and advise from a life person, but I value you all's opinion as well. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.
Thanks again, and any advise, critique etc is welcome. I'll keep you posted.
Jan

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/10/2010 : 06:23:47

Good to hear that Jan.

When you look at cost of this repair, you may be getting near the replacement value of the boat. To DIY our keel repair this past winter was going to cost me an estimated $700 - $1000 without labour or contingencies. The yard charged insurance $5500, and our deductable was $500.

I could have replaced the boat for $7,000 and take all my mods with me.

Edited by - on

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