Association Forum - Buying a Used Boat

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Buying a Used Boat

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

Tabooma-3
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/13/2010 : 11:32:11

I am ready to upgrade boats and I am in the market for a used Catalina-25 swing-keel, 1980's vintage. I have been in contact with several sellers and I am planning on looking at one next weekend.
Does anyone have a good boat inspection checklist or guidelines for doing a thorough boat inspection?
Does anyone have experience with getting a Marine Survey done on a Catalina-25? Picking a name out of a phone book (if, indeed they are listed in the phone book) seems a bit arbitrary to me.
Thanks for any input you can give me.

Tabooma-3

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 14:25:23

If you click on the Technical Tips and scroll down under "General Tech Tips" you'll find a couple of good articles. Good luck and welcome aboard.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 14:26:42

Welcome Mark! Take a look in our Technical Tips (from the menu on the left) for articles on "shopping" and "appraising" (on the opening page).

For a surveyor, you can refer to www.marinesurvey.org to get a list of accredited people in your area. You're to be commended for recognizing the value of this.

Again, welcome, let us know how it's going, search through our site, and bring on the questions!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/13/2010 14:46:14

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 15:36:55

Mark,
Find yourself a copy of Don Casey's book: Inspecting the Aging Sailboat. It'll help a lot. I bought one at a local Borders.

As you look around, don't hesitate to ask specific questions.

Welcome.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/13/2010 15:38:44

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 11:54:52

also, check out the boats offered here in the swap meet section of the forum.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 22:04:14

Several foibles to look out for - other folks will likely point out their favorites:
1. Keel - pre 1983(?) had an iron keel, newer had lead keels. Iron rusts, created the "Catalina smile" or rusty outline on the keel stub.

2. Check chainplates, windows (ports and portlights), mast tablernacle/step, cockpit scuppers, cabin-top, forward hatch and stanchions for rain leaks (run the hose over the boat)

3. Nav-lights and deck connections may not work

4. Standing rigging - check for rust, meathooks, bad swages, cotter pins and connections

5. Rudder - prefer balanced rudder over standard rudder. Check for freeze damage (longitudinal cracking)

6. Through hull fittings - older boats had less secure "to hull" fittings, newer have through hull fitting (bolted through on both the inside and outside of the hull).

7. Bad electrical systems - 12V systems where nav lights, cabin lights and other essentials don't work, or voltage is limited because of corroded or small guage wire. Shore power circuits that are wired with the hot to neutral and vice versa.

8. Delamination of the hull and deck fibreglass where the core has rotted out - use the back of the screwdriver handle to listen for that dead rotten core sound, especially near places where rainwater was able to enter (see #2)

9. Brittle stainless steel keel bolts in the bilge - can cause the keel to fall off and immediately capsize and sink the boat.

10. Bad or baggy sails

11. Blistering and bubbles in the hull below waterline - evidenced by cratered bottom paint, bumpy gelcoat on the bottom or popped blisters in the gelcoat. Do not intentionally pop the blisters as they contain strong acid and can squirt in your eye. Can be expensive and a big pain in the butt to remedy.

12. Engine mount should be strong and secure, not wobbly or flimsy. You should be able to hang off it with a good deal of your weight.

13. Pintles and gudgeons should have no play, should be tight, but allow the rudder to move smoothly (no bumps)

14. Gas locker - newer boats have a gas locker under the port seats in the cockpit.

15. Bilge pump (handle in the cockpit along the port side) - should pump water when the bilge has more than 1-2" of water in it.

I know that I am forgetting dozens of other problems, but with Don Casey's books as a guide, and with a competent surveyor, you should be fine. Find a person who is familiar with Catalinas.

Best of luck and welcome - looking forward to one of the two favorite days in a boater's life . . .

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 22:55:33

I second (third?) Casey's book, it has a wealth of knowledge in it. I recommend reading it all the way through, twice. It's not that big of a book, so you can get through it in an afternoon. His half hour inspection regimen will allow you to quickly sort through the prospects and cull the losers from the keepers.

Good luck, and let us know what you find. Don't hesitate to ask questions, there are lots of super folks in here who are very willing to offer advice as you go through your search.

We looked at nearly three dozen boats before settling on our C-250 so don't get discouraged if you don't find what you're looking for right away.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 05:25:40

To add to Bruce (voyager's list)

16. In the Vee berth, remove the wooden insert at teh front of theboat, and check for mud/water in there to identify a leaking anchor locker above.

17. The Depth sounder/paddle wheel is below the port settee. check for broken/disconnected wires.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 06:04:37

Sounds pretty scary! But when all is said, the C-25 is basically a stout, simple boat. There will be things that need replacing and repairing... Later models have improvements and advantages over older ones... The C-25, for its age, has unmatched support--from the manufacturer, from a third-party supplier of upgrades (Catalina Direct), and from this association.

There's an old saying: "A $10,000 boat will cost you $10,000, regardless of how much you pay for it in the beginning." The C-25 is probably minimally an $8,000 boat--one way or the other.

A surveyor will give you the right perspective, and a prioritized list of issues to address--now, next spring, or whenever you feel like it. Attend the survey with a clipboard and ask questions. The reading list above will help you to ask intelligent ones.

Finally (for me

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/15/2010 06:14:22

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 06:18:20

BTW, we have a "Pastmember" (his ID here) in Kansas who owned two vintages and configurations of the C-25 and knows as much about the boat as anyone.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/15/2010 06:19:45

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 06:31:55

Thanks for mentioning "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" again John. I hadn't taken the time before to order it but did today. [url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0070133948/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=all"]Here's a link[/url] Tabooma-3 to some like new used editions for less than $10.00.

Edited by - on

Tabooma-3
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 07:41:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 BTW, we have a "Pastmember" (his ID here) in Kansas who owned two vintages and configurations of the C-25 and knows as much about the boat as anyone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave and everyone who has responded - Thanks for the great information and help. We are working on tracking down a copy of Don Casey's book locally (not sure I can get a copy on-line before we leave).
The ID of the Kansas "Pastmember" does not show, but there are a half-dozen C-25's at the local yacht club we sail out of and the owners have been really helpful. I've gone over several of them and sailed one last weekend. I have a quote from a Marine Surveyor in Chicago (near where the boat is being stored) and I will talk with him today. It all helps in getting a handle on what to look for.
Thanks again.
Mark

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 08:13:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Finally (for me

), don't buy the first boat you look at--at least until you've looked at a few more. This is to minimize "buyer's remorse"--another version of "maybe the grass was greener" syndrome.

All the best in your quest!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My version of this was that I wanted EVERY boat I looked at for one reason or another, too eager I guess.

Other things you may not be aware of:

UPGRADES worth looking for:
1. A pop-top. Not every C-25 is a Pop-top, so check to be sure. I know it sounds funny, but one I looked at was fantastic and clean and well cared for, but no pop-top. I really like that I can open the lid and cool th eboat off when at the marina.

2. Gas Struts on the Pop-top. The top is heavy, so some folks have installed gas struts like on th etrunk of a car to help lift it. This makes a big difference. Similarly...

3. Motor Mount springs. More springs = better, usually. Too many springs and you can't get the motor down, too few and you can't lift it up, so be sure the mount is sized to the engine... which brings us to our next feature.

4. The engine. Very few C-25's were built with an inboard Diesel. If you find one, let me know. Very desireable. Most were built with an outboard on the back. If the engine is big, the back of th eboat will squat down (slower) if the engine is small, say under 6 HP you may have trouble in winds and currents. If the engine is tiny, electric, or missing, budget for a new one. I think th eideal size for my application would be a 6hp (I have a 9.9hp) but I have no tides or currents and I'm on an inland lake, so th ewind is usually pretty tame, which brings us to our next feature...

5. The rig. C-25s came with either a tall rig or standard rig. No one has been able to determine which is better. That is because both are fine. The tall rig is intended for inland or coastal sailing while the standard is intended for "thar she blows" type seafarers. I have a standard rig on an inland lake and get goin gjust fine. In my estimation the standard rig is better because you get more cockpit headroom, and PHRF gives you a bonus on scoring if you race. Which brings us to the next item...

6. The keel. You have already decided on a swing keel, which is great. A swing lets you trailer and get away easily if you run aground, they are the most common arrangement. On the downside, they don't point as well as the fin, require the most maintenance, and are more prone to failure than the other arrangements. Another choice is the fin. A fin will give you better pointing ability, only has a handful of bolts to repair/maintain, and is very unlikely to fail. Most racers chose the fin keel. On th edownside, if you hit bottom with the fin keel at any kind of speed, you can be looking at FG repairs that can be costly. A fin keel has th edeepest draft of t hethree, and can make getting into shallow marinas a challenge. The third type is th ewing. A wing is difficult to free if you run aground and doesn't point as well as the fin. It is essentially maintenance free though, and draws far less than the fin, but about the same as a swing.

More features to come - I gotta get to a meeting.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 09:47:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 6. The keel... A fin will give you better pointing ability...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Are you sure about that? I'm not. The swing keel draws a foot more (down) than the fin, and all other things being equal, might have at least as much lift. The ballast is 400# less, but its CG is probably lower, for a similar righting moment. I suspect everything else will have a lot more effect on pointing and speed than swing-versus-fin. (...and I was a fin owner.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/15/2010 09:48:39

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 12:10:16

There have been many long debates on which keel is best. I thought the consensus (sp?) was that the swing and fin were close, but th efin was better. Anyway - different opinions obviously exist, and rig tuning will be as much a part of this as the shape of the keel, so hey, whatever.

More features...

7. Bilge Pump - Most of these boats came with only a manual bilge pump located in the cockpit. Many owners have installed a second electric pump.

8. Galley. The original boats came with a "factory curtain Burner" In my boat it had been replaced with a microwave (which wasn't much use to us, except as a place to store gatorade bottles) and it was removed so the space could be freed up for stowage. Many owners have installed other types of stoves, this is a great upgrade, but be sure th einstallation was done right.

9. Vents. Solar vents are great to have, but not all boats will have them installed. If you get one, its a bonus.

10. Settee-back stowage. A number of owners have modded the back of the settees (usually starboard) for extra stowage space.Some have very nice installs. I haven't done it yet because mine would come out looking like a drunk chipmunk had gnawed on the fiberglass while playing the maracas.

11. Sails. Ok, you are already a sailor, so you know what you are looking for, and if you are looking for a boat with furling this may not apply, but anyway - I have hank-on sails and have used them all. Right from the 60% storm jib up to our 155% genoa, and I have sometimes wished for a DRS. These boats will do well in almost anything you can throw at them, but you need to have the right sails up for the job. try to get a boat with variety in the sail locker.

12. Another great upgrade is a battery monitor - anything is better than nothing, but I have heard many times that digital is better than analog. A fishfinder may serve this purpose as well.

13 Cockpit cushions. I don't know whether these were standard issue or not, but they make my butt happy. When I don't pull them out (racing) I often wish I could.

14 Lines led aft. This is always an owner mod, it involves a mast-step plate, a set of turning blocks, 2 deck organizers, and 2 sets of rope clutches. Our boat has 6 lines lead aft (Reef 1, Reef 2, Main Halyard, Jib Halyard, Spin (Spare) Halyard, Boom Vang). It makes single-handling a dream, and has saved my bacon a number of times when things got dicey.

OK - gotta go. happy shopping!

EDIT to Add - the most useless upgrade that owners like to talk up is the pop-top tent. We have never used ours, and I actually removed most of the snaps its supposed to attach to. If your boat doesn't come with one, don't sweat it, you won't miss it at all.

Edited by - Prospector on 06/15/2010 12:31:03

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 20:49:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 ...the most useless upgrade that owners like to talk up is the pop-top tent. We have never used ours, and I actually removed most of the snaps its supposed to attach to. If your boat doesn't come with one, don't sweat it, you won't miss it at all.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Agreed. (Others will disagree.) Headroom with the pop-top down is adequate for those few cold or wet times you'll be aboard. The pop-top is great for shade and air on those hot, sultry days at the dock or at anchor. (It's awfully heavy to leave up under way--a mishap could really hurt somebody, or the boat.) I never unfolded the tent.

I might add that Prospector's list is mostly things that are routine upgrades that have little or no effect on the value of the boat or the advisability of buying it. They're all nice to have--few are important to have, and none, if lacking, are reasons not to buy. However, I'll take a roller-furler with a 135% genoa over a sail locker full of various headsails any day! (There's another BIG debate!) Remember, B.O.A.T stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/15/2010 21:03:13

andypavo
1st Mate

Members Avatar

USA
51 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 12:45:22

Check to see if the porta potty is full of dung. Happened to me.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 16:21:48

We usually spend 2 - 5 days aboard at a time, and it would be miserable without the poptop. It takes 5-10 minutes to set up and opens the interior dramatically. That is the dissenting voice. Eating, watching TV, reading, or just lounging, it is much less claustrophobic and cooler to not have the overhead a few inches overhead.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 16:30:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Check to see if the porta potty is full of dung<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

HIJACK, no follow up: I have a friend who bought a very old house from the estate of a very old lady from the coal fields of Kentucky. Her sons, a few years after she got an electric well pump and pressure water inside, installed a real flush toilet. They didn't add a septic system, and the toilet flushed into the dirt floor cellar for a decade before she died. None of us would help him with that part of the restoration.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 18:57:09

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 We usually spend 2 - 5 days aboard at a time, and it would be miserable without the poptop. It takes 5-10 minutes to set up and opens the interior dramatically. That is the dissenting voice. Eating, watching TV, reading, or just lounging, it is much less claustrophobic and cooler to not have the overhead a few inches overhead.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agree completely - but do you ever use the tent? the white vinyl thing that weighs about a billion pounds and is impossible to re-fold before stowing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/16/2010 : 21:24:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tabooma-3
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 BTW, we have a "Pastmember" (his ID here) in Kansas who owned two vintages and configurations of the C-25 and knows as much about the boat as anyone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...
The ID of the Kansas "Pastmember" does not show...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Over the years, he posted as Frank Hopper--click Members above, then "F", and you'll see him. More recently he changed to Pastmember (under P). I think he's in Wichita.

Edited by - on

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

Members Avatar

844 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 10:55:34

Here's a good one: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102541

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Members Avatar

USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/17/2010 : 12:39:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Agree completely - but do you ever use the tent? the white vinyl thing that weighs about a billion pounds and is impossible to re-fold before stowing.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yep, that's why it take 5 - 10 min instead of 2. It is nice to just raise the pop on a hot day, but it would get a bit buggy at night without the cover.

Edited by - on

Tabooma-3
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
4 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2010 : 20:42:38

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic. The information was very helpful and between the comments here and Don Casey's excellent book, I put together a 6-page checklist which I used to go over the boats. We purchased a 1980 C-25 that we will be able to sail this summer and begin to slowly get it back into top shape. We trailered it 500 miles to the Kansas City area yesterday. The trailer was the hardest part, but we got a bearing repacked and the trip went without a problem.
Now I can start working my way through the maintenance and upgrade forums.
Thanks Again!

Edited by - on

Even Chance
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
393 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2010 : 04:05:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Several foibles to look out for - other folks will likely point out their favorites:
1. Keel - pre 1983(?) had an iron keel, newer had lead keels. Iron rusts, created the "Catalina smile" or rusty outline on the keel stub.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

He said he was looking for a swing keel, all of which are iron.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/24/2010 : 05:03:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tabooma-3
 Thanks to everyone who contributed to this topic. The information was very helpful and between the comments here and Don Casey's excellent book, I put together a 6-page checklist which I used to go over the boats. We purchased a 1980 C-25 that we will be able to sail this summer and begin to slowly get it back into top shape. We trailered it 500 miles to the Kansas City area yesterday. The trailer was the hardest part, but we got a bearing repacked and the trip went without a problem.
Now I can start working my way through the maintenance and upgrade forums.
Thanks Again!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Conrats and welcome to the family!! What is your sail number? Do we know the PO?

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.