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Lightning Dissipation on Catalinas

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TakeFive
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Initially Posted - 06/13/2010 : 18:53:44

It is well known that Catalinas do not come from the factory with any lightning protection, and I think most of our manuals have Catalina's CYA explanation of why. A friend suggested that I carry jumper cables onboard and if I get into threatening weather, just attach one to one of the upper shrouds and let it dangle in the water. In fact, Catalina's manual suggests doing pretty much the same thing with "battery cables."

I thought I would check with you guys first to see what you do. Any better ideas?

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 19:16:32

This would probably work just as well or better and is a passive system.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/dissipaters.html

And I've heard on damp night with a lot of electical energy in the air and under the right conditions you can get a pretty good St. Elmo's Fire show going off these dissipaters.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 19:19:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 This would probably work just as well or better and is a passive system.

http://www.landfallnavigation.com/dissipaters.html

And I've heard on damp night with a lot of electical energy in the air and under the right conditions you can get a pretty good St. Elmo's Fire show going off these dissipaters.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for your suggestion. I probably should have mentioned that I prefer for people to suggest thing that they have actually done themselves. I'm not looking to be a guinea pig - I'm looking for advice based on actual experience.

Have you tried this? If so, how did it work? If not, why don't you try it and let me know - or explain what you do instead?

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/13/2010 19:20:31

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:12:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by RhythmDoctor
 ...I prefer for people to suggest thing that they have actually done themselves. I'm not looking to be a guinea pig - I'm looking for advice based on actual experience.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What do you classify as "actual experience"? Not getting hit? (Almost all of us have that "experience.") Getting hit and not sinking? (I haven't heard of that yet from this group.) Having a nearby strike to the water fry your electronics? (I have a few friends in that category--coincidentally none with C-25s.) Or what??

The net of it is this is a black art. Read what you want, pick the strategy you want, and Mother Nature will pretty much do with you as she pleases. Lightning is too much of a force for us to channel without significant risk, but then again it apparently very rarely strikes one of these boats. Based on statistics, it seems to prefer an open center-console powerboat with a nice high-saline body holding onto a metal steering wheel connected by steel cable to an outboard immersed in fresh water. In salt water, it seems to prefer to go straight to the water--often very close to a boat.

When you figure out the best answer, please tell us all!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/13/2010 20:16:36

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:38:12

Sorry, I did not mean my comments to come across that way. By "experience," I do not mean to limit my advice to people who have been hit by lightning. I mainly want to hear what other people do about this.

As a general rule, if you are confident enough in a device/method to do it on your own boat, I consider that a significant vote of confidence. If you are recommending something to me that you are not willing to try yourself, then I'd like to know what you do instead. Because it's that latter example that I'd prefer to try.

So, in general, I'm looking for you to tell me:

1) "Dangling a jumper cable is what I do - go do it"
2) "Dangling a jumper cable makes the problem worse, and I do <insert words> instead"
3) "You're toast anyway, so don't bother to do anything. Just stay away from anything metal"
etc....

I should add that I am not looking for a magic device that will somehow prevent my boat from getting hit. I'm not looking for miracles. But if there is a method that will direct the jolt somewhere other than through me, then that is a level of safety enhancement that I am interested in...which is why I think the jumper cables dangling from the upper shrouds into the water seems to make sense.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/13/2010 20:46:21

Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:41:58

Dave
After reading a lot of differing opinions on it, I've got to agree with you. Since lightning is incredibly unpredictable, you've got to do what you think is right. I have a set of jumper cables. I've also installed #4 copper wire from the base of the mast to my keel bolts.

One thing is certain however on our C-25s. There is a big chunk of aluminum leading from about 33 feet above the water to within about 3 feet of the water. There are wires inside of the aluminum rod. They lead to the switch panel, the battery and the outboard engine. There is a crappy path to ground - sufficient to encourage "step leaders" - the precursors to a lightning strike.

It's not a certainty - with lightning, nothing is certain - but there is a possibility that this arrangement could "attract" lightning to the boat.

As you mention, there's no point putting the hull at risk of a hole by encouraging it, but not giving it anywhere to go.

As far as jumper cables - I'd add one more suggestion. Add a metal item with a large surface area, like a sheet of stainless, an old (metal) 3 pound coffee can or something else to the electrode in the water. Surface areas allows better dissipation of the bolt into the water.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:52:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ...As far as jumper cables - I'd add one more suggestion. Add a metal item with a large surface area, like a sheet of stainless, an old (metal) 3 pound coffee can or something else to the electrode in the water. Surface areas allows better dissipation of the bolt into the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That's part of what led to my question. Today I looked at the "zinc fish" at WestMarine. It's meant to be a sacrificial anode that dangles in the water, and at $40 it's overkill for what I would want, since I already have an anode on my outboard, which is about the only thing that needs it (unless you can suggest otherwise). Plus, in fresh water zinc is not really the right metal anyway. So I don't need a solid zinc fish, but it would add some surface area, and its weight would keep the cable well submerged. So it got me thinking...

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/14/2010 06:04:57

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/13/2010 : 20:58:07

I have not tried the lightning dissipater only because I haven't had the opportunity to take the mast down and install one. I will when I pull my boat this winter. Numerous boats in my marina have them.

The dissipater helps to bleed off the static that builds up on an object thereby helping, but not eliminating, the risk of a lightning strike.

Even with the dissipaters there is no guarantee. There are (8) - 2000' TV towers approx. 2 miles from my house. Every one of them have large dissipaters mounted at the very top. I've seen at least three of these towers get hit numerous times. I saw one get hit three times in about 10 minutes.

So, in general, I'm looking for you to tell me:
1) "Dangling a jumper cable is what I do - go do it"
2) "Dangling a jumper cable makes the problem worse, and I do <insert words> instead"
3) "You're toast anyway, so don't bother to do anything. Just stay away from anything metal"
etc....

Nothing except try to avoid electrical storms.

From what I remember reading in the past, to have a chance at any kind of lightning protection you must have a large metal plate properly bonded to the bottom of the hull and to the rigging and all electrical devices on the boat.

Dangling even a large diameter battery cable over the side of the boat is not going to give you enough area to effectively ground the rigging. Some discussions I've read think it might actually attract a lightning strike.

Don't go out if there are storms in the area.

If storms are forecast keep a close eye on the sky and head to shore at the first sign of developing weather.

If you do get caught out, pray, it's the best protection you can get.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/13/2010 21:08:08

JohnP
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 05:38:29

I sail on salt water and do nothing except try to avoid bad weather.

I've read that, while you may not be able to prevent a lightning strike to your boat, it is possible to save portable electronics by placing them inside a metal box to shield them from the enormous electric/magnetic pulse caused by a strike.

Next time I see lightning when I'm out on the boat, I plan to put my cell phone and hand-held GPS into my boat's microwave oven.

A hole in the hull would be a tragedy for the boat, but then having no cell phone to call in my "may day" could be life threatening for me and my crew.

Edited by - JohnP on 06/14/2010 07:48:08

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 05:40:44

Make sure that you are in a marina with larger boats that have taller masts. Lightning will most likely hit them first!

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 05:43:41

To add to DaveB's, "haven't seen a C-25 struck", two years ago a guy with a 45 footer docked at the house next to me(40 feet away) got struck, fried everything on board, I had no damage. I haven't asked him if he was grounded but I am not.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 07:57:39

Now THAT'S how to avoid a strike...

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 09:10:18

I have also heard that the more water under your keel the less likely you are to be hit since water is a poor conductor. So you want to dock next to a boat with a longer mast and deeper keel.

I agree with the comments above that this is a poorly documented area, and a lot of voodoo is being plied on nervous mariners.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 13:50:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 I have also heard that the more water under your keel the less likely you are to be hit since water is a poor conductor...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Fresh water is. Salt water is a pretty good conductor, which is apparently why lightning tends to go directly to salt water, sometimes very close to boats with tall masts, and apparently has somewhat more of a tendency to hit a boat in fresh water.

Incidentally, stainless steel rigging is not a very good conductor, so the jumper from the shrouds is dubious. From the mast, according to what I've read, a jumper hanging overboard would have too many turns. I wouldn't create a "path" for lightning unless it included an air-gap device to prevent leaders. But in my salt-water environment, I decided to (1) add nothing and (2) avoid testing Mother Nature.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 14:39:08

I agree with Dave B. The further you get from a dedicated system that is heavy gauge and goes straight to a large, unpainted submerged grounding plate, the more voodoo is involved. Even the basic system has a little voodoo: some evidence suggests that a real direct to ground system may increase the likelihood of being hit but decreases the likelihood of damage and injury. An air gap between the mast and the conductor may decrease the chance of attracting a strike but still be effective in preventing damage. Search the forum for prior discussions and some interesting links. After a lot of research and consideration, my approach is the same as Dave's.

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 20:08:52

Many years ago, when I owned a Luger 16 and was sailing in rather shallow water on south shore of Long island (bay side south of Amityville or thereabouts), Lightning dissipation took on a whole different meaning.

The wind died, the rain started to come down in buckets and then in the distance the lightning started hitting the water. Meanwhile, I could not get my motor started. A motor boat came close by and my wife and our two friends did not hesitate for a second - They jumped ship into the 2-3 feet water and waded over to the motor boat (with cabin). To me..that is what I would call Lightning Dissipation !

Then they towed my boat with me alone onboard in direction of civilization. But the sky cleared up. We sailed some more and then headed back into port. My friend is always telling this Lightning story at get-togethers...How they abandoned ship.

Edited by - OLarryR on 06/14/2010 20:38:56

Voyager
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Response Posted - 06/14/2010 : 21:27:56

With lightning, it's a huge crap shoot. Go with what you think is right. Park next to a taller mast.
I like the Faraday cage idea however - put your electronics inside of a metal container or wrap them in tin foil.
Make sure to disconnect them first though.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 09:34:12

Speaking of lightning, fiberglass, and Mother Nature's vagary, check
[url="http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/15/jesus-statue-struck-by-lightning/?hpt=C2"]this[/url].

Make up your own spiritual commentary...

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 09:42:28

I haven't read the paper today and didn't realize that "Touchdown Jesus", as most of us heathens call it, took a hit. Probably of more interest, the new issue of "Good Old Boat" has a lightening protection article.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 09:47:12

Thanks for all your great advice. I now realize that there is no simple answer. Anything I do to direct a lightning strike outside the cabin may actually increase my likelihood of getting struck.

And just as I was beginning to think the only thing left that I could do to protect myself was put a statue of Jesus on my boat, you guys blow away that idea too!

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redeye
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Response Posted - 06/15/2010 : 10:18:34

http://www.pcdivecenter.com/boats/boats.htm

My perspective is I've watched these boats go out 3 times a week for about 30 years. I've never heard of them getting hit. I have come up from a dive several times with it storming up top. Talk about a ground, that is a lot of metal.
I've only been "shocked" once when it hit the water/tree while we were under on a spring dive.

I don't worry about it too much, unless you hair starts sticking up. I keep a several St Brendan's on the boat. (patron saint of leaky boats)

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Don B
Captain

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Response Posted - 06/29/2010 : 08:55:19

I don't plan on rigging up any lightning prevention systems but still some interesting reading...

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/sg071

http://www.kp44.org/LightningProtection.php

Speaking of lightning...after a close lightning strike last week while in Orlando...back of the neck hair raising, Usain Bolt imitating, and all that...I've trashed my $5, cheapo, drug store bought, METAL FRAME umbrella.

That bit about the metal frame has always bothered me but just something I chose to ignore. Sometimes I wonder how I've made it this far...

Edited by - on

aeckhart
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Response Posted - 06/29/2010 : 13:37:21

I was struck several years ago.Blew out my instruments,fuse panel, and destroyed a battery. I also had about 30 pin holes with spider cracks eminating from them in the bottom, and a quarter-size and a dime-size hole in the boot stripe.

The boat didn't leak a drop let alone sink. in fact, I was racing the next day and made my own temporary repairs.

I still haven't added any lightning protection mainly because, as Dave suggests, you can add all the protection you want and mother nature will get you given the right circumstances. Most all references will tell you that there is no full-proof method of avoiding a lightning strike. What I have done since, is make sure the power is off in the boat when I leave it at the mooring (it was on when struck), and, since static electricity can be a key player in a strike, make sure nothing can cause it on deck.

I haven't been struck since but I have been hit by a careless motor boater at night. Aside frm adding more lights I don't know how to protect myself from them.

Edited by - on

willyd103
1st Mate

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USA
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Response Posted - 06/29/2010 : 16:07:53

Add a fuse on the ground side of each piece of electronics connected to your battery. It might, at least, save the radio.
Will
SV Stardust
1996 C250 #215

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tinob
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Response Posted - 06/29/2010 : 19:22:23

I love this kind of speculating and today especially so. It caused me to wonder if large fish are ever struck by lightning. Perhaps if not it might be best to just jump into the water when storms music comes crackling over my ancient AM radio.. I've have never been on a boat hit by lightning. Mainly I rely on most all of the cheap attempts mentioned here, battery cables from the base of the mast to the keel, battery cables hung from the shroud bases and dangled in the water and prayer. One or all of my attempts to control lightning may have been responsible for my good fortune til now. I dunno. The lazy components of my being are prompting me to consider the man over board idea. Then I can swim a reasonable distance from the boat with all the cables hanging in the water while I say my prayers suspecting that I've possibly solved today's problem.

So wadder ya think, any takers.

Val on Calista #3936. Patchogue N.Y.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/30/2010 : 09:33:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by tinob
 ...The lazy components of my being are prompting me to consider the man over board idea. Then I can swim a reasonable distance from the boat with all the cables hanging in the water while I say my prayers suspecting that I've possibly solved today's problem...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Just don't leave the sails up. And remember, even under bare poles, she can surf nicely in a squall.

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