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Replacing jibs sails with a furler

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pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/20/2010 : 10:30:31

Should I or shouldn't I? As noted in a previous post, my old sails (#652) on this '79, while in good shape, are stained, need cleaning (how?) and well, old. So should I invest in a furler? Which one? How big a job to install is it?

Paul J
79 SK
Lake Cunningham, Omaha

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 17:23:34

Good questions Paul. The decision for me would be in how long you intend to keep the boat. I don't think the furler will positively impact the future market value of a 30+ year old boat much. So, if your intent is to keep the boat for just a short time, I think I'd forego the furler since furler will mean including a new headsail in the price. If she's to be yours for the long haul I'd replace the hank-ons tomorrow.

As far as cleaning goes, I sent my mainsail to [url="http://www.sailcare.com/"]Sailcare[/url] last fall and am very happy with the results. They'll inspect the sails and tell you whether or not they're worth cleaning/restoring or should be replaced. Unfortunately, since your season is as short as mine, I'd wait to send it after you pull your boat for the winter. You could give them a call and check their turn around though.

My boat came with a furler so I can't help with installation but from what I've read, it seems straightforward. I have a CDI FF4.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 17:36:09

Pearl came with a Harken and I love it. John's advice is on the money. I just chimed in to second the Sailcare recommendation, I've used them several times over the years and last winter the did a great job on Pearl's sails.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 18:44:53

I took our sails in to a local loft and they did a good job of cleaning them up and making me happy. I can't remember how much I paid them, but I thought they did a good job. You may want to call around the local guys before shipping off the sails.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 18:54:10

Hi Paul... To roll or to hank... The fact that you're asking the question qualifies you, I suspect, as somebody who will one day say your furler was the best investment you ever made for your boat. No more pulling the genny out of the bag, hanking it on, finding out later you have too much sail up, struggling to get it down (as can happen with wind gusting on the nose), unhanking it, folding and/or stuffing it back in the bag, etc., etc. With the roller, you motor out, hoist the main, start sailing, pull on the genoa sheet while under way, and sail a lot faster. Need less sail, just say the word. When you're done for the day, but still sailing, you pull on the furling line and the genny is gone. Drop the main, go back to the dock, and you're done.

We liked our roller-furled 130 so much, we often left the cover on the main and just pulled out the genny. When we were done, we pulled the other string and that was it! The boat is much faster on genny alone than on main alone, and heels very little in blustery, gusty weather.

As for resale... I don't agree it will add nothing to the value. What it will do is make the boat stand out among its competitors, making for a faster sale, in the end at a somewhat better price, even if not representing the full expense of the furler. These days, getting an old boat to sell at all is most of the battle.

But is that why you bought her in the first place or upgrade her in the second? I suspect it's for your own enjoyment, and except for some die-hard racers and other performance enthusiasts, a roller can transform the sailing experience!

Edit: For initial cost and ease of installing by yourself, CDI, with its one-piece plastic foil, is a good choice. Harken, Hood, Furlex, etc., have metal foils that are more complex to put together on the forestay. If you're trailering, CDI might be your only viable choice. It's the make now offered on the C-250.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/21/2010 06:41:22

two port feet
1st Mate

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77 Posts

Response Posted - 06/20/2010 : 21:04:46

Our C25 has a roller furler and with all control lines led aft. You just motor out, pull a few lines and sail off. I also sail a Sabre 28 with hanks an at 60 pulling out and stuffing sail bags is getting old fast. I feel the furling sail is the way to go, you'll spend more time sailing and will add more storage aria below.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 04:11:39

Paul,

I agree with what Dave said above. Also, if those are the original sails, dacron holds up pretty good to wear and so many have original sails still on their boat but chances are they are stretched and the boat cannot tack that close to the wind without a lot of flutter from the sails. What I am getting at is that if you want to get a furler, you obviously need a furling sail. These two together will cost a good bit to outfit your boat but there are significant benefits. First, a new sail will point better, if you go with a furling rig, it has advantages in less setup time leaving the dock because your sail is ready to go, it is easier to manage the sail when single handed sailing or even with company and you can adjust the sail for the wind conditions. On the negative side is the cost of the sail and that you have to ensure you sail is secured sufficiently so that when not at the dock, there is no chance that it could unfurl. Some, besides cleating the furl line, also put tie wraps or other securing methods at the bow or on the sail itself (with ties).

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 04:50:48

There's a house around the corner from mine that is owned by the former GM of the Cleveland Browns. He bought it from the builder in 2005. He was fired in 2008 and put his house up for sale then. It's still for sale. The problem is that it was overbuilt for the neighborhood. It's asking price is easily more than 3 times the price of most of the houses in the neighborhood. In fact, it's probably 4-5 times more than its next door neighbor. Had it been built a block and a half further north (on Lake Erie), it would be worth far more than its asking price.

That suggests the problem of putting on a costly improvement on your boat IF you're considering selling it any time soon.

If not, [url="http://nationalsail.com/mcart/index.cgi?code=3&cat=15"]National Sail has package deal for a 150% Genoa and a CDI FF4 furler for $1309.[/url] You could probably save a few bucks and get a 135% (my preference) instead of the 150%.

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2010 : 07:48:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Hi Paul... To roll or to hank... The fact that you're asking the question qualifies you, I suspect, as somebody who will one day say your furler was the best investment you ever made for your boat. No more pulling the genny out of the bag, hanking it on, finding out later you have too much sail up, struggling to get it down (as can happen with wind gusting on the nose), unhanking it, folding and/or stuffing it back in the bag, etc., etc. With the roller, you motor out, hoist the main, start sailing, pull on the genoa sheet while under way, and sail a lot faster. Need less sail, just say the word. When you're done for the day, but still sailing, you pull on the furling line and the genny is gone. Drop the main, go back to the dock, and you're done.

We liked our roller-furled 130 so much, we often left the cover on the main and just pulled out the genny. When we were done, we pulled the other string and that was it! The boat is much faster on genny alone than on main alone, and heels very little in blustery, gusty weather.

As for resale... I don't agree it will add nothing to the value. What it will do is make the boat stand out among its competitors, making for a faster sale, in the end at a somewhat better price, even if not representing the full expense of the furler. These days, getting an old boat to sell at all is most of the battle.

But is that why you bought her in the first place or upgrade her in the second? I suspect it's for your own enjoyment, and except for some die-hard racers and other performance enthusiasts, a roller can transform the sailing experience!

Edit: For initial cost and ease of installing by yourself, CDI, with its one-piece plastic foil, is a good choice. Harken, Hood, Furlex, etc., have metal foils that are more complex to put together on the forestay. If you're trailering, CDI might be your only viable choice. It's the make now offered on the C-250.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I completely agree with this. When I bought Stephanos it came with a CDI roller furling unit that was not installed. So for the first season we did the whole hank on process which can get brutal in the Texas heat. At first I really thought I'd be racing the boat a lot, I didn't want to take a hit on performance etc. I found that I do most of my racing on other boats anyways. We use our boat for cruising, over nighters etc. I raced Saturday, and we did well, so I'm not sure how much or performance hit it is. We are still very competitive in the fleet we're in.

When I got the bottom job done this spring, I had them install the roller furler. Best decision I ever made for the boat. I have a 130 on it and it makes sailing so much easier in terms of preparation and putting everything up at the end of the day. As stinkpotter said, many times, if it's blowing over 15 knots, I just leave the main in the cover, unroll the head sail and I easily get up to hull speed. A C-25 does much better with head sail alone than main alone in my experience. Then when you head back, start the engine, roll up the sail, get to the dock, throw on the dock lines and leave.

The biggest reason to go with roller furling? Your crew, especially SWMBO. Last year she started not wanting to come out because of all the work involved. She is thrilled with the roller furling system as the boat can be entirely put up on our way back to the slip and has mentioned more than a few times how happy she is that we installed it.

I would say do it, unless you're using the boat primarily for racing. We are so glad we did.

Edited by - on

skrenz
Captain

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USA
351 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 12:20:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 Good questions Paul. The decision for me would be in how long you intend to keep the boat. ..... I think I'd forego the furler since furler will mean including a new headsail in the price.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is not necessarily true. Last season I installed a CDI furler. Very reasonable price and very easy to install and operate. Like others, best improvement to the boat I could have made.

I also converted my existing hank on Genoa to a roller furling Genoa. The kit comes from SailRite and includes easy to understand instructions etc. You need to have basic sewing skills and a strong enough machine. (My wife's Jenome went through everything but the very corners and those I finished by hand). Lacking these, I'm sure you could find a local seamstress to take on the project. But I encourage you to look into it yourself. This is not rocket science. Its essentially, cut this edge off and sew this new edge on. I'll be happy to answer your questions if I can.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 18:53:05

OK, I'm old school.

I have Hanks. I have no intention of swapping the sails I have out for furling.

I like having "cruising sails" and "race sails" I like being able to switch between them without it being a major ordeal. I like having 5 headsails to choose between and having the flexibility to move from one size to teh next without sacrificing performance. I like having different weights of cloth and the character of each sail.

The stack of sails take up room, but they all fit nicely under the vee berth if space is at a premium, or on top of it if we are racing and a change may be needed.

Certainly flaking and folding takes more time than pulling a furling cord. We spent that time with a beer closeby reliving the glory of the race, or the cruise. If its raining, the sails get loosely folded into the salon, and are hoisted to dry out the next time we visit the boat, usually within a day or two.

If a sail is performing poorly, I can take it to the shop for repairs adn have 4 others that could replace it (ok, really only 3, one is a storm jib) but I wouldn't be stuck in my slip wishing I had another furling sail. I don't worry about UV covers, adn I don't worry about tension on the furling line when a storm blows through. I will never return to the marina to find a shredded headsail after a thunderstorm.

With new crew on board, its one less line to explain. not that that counts for much. For me, its one less line to worry about chafing, UV rot, and replacing. My halyards get used every time I raise the sail, and so are inspected and rot in them is noticed, so they can be replaced before failing.

I don't have to fight with foils and furlers when I raise/lower my mast. A bent foil can ruin your whole day.

When I bought my boat I wasn't specifically looking for one with or without furling. If I bought again, I think it wouldn't make a great difference to me. If I got furling though, I would want to be sure I got a cruising adn racing headsail, adn would have to change out a lot.

I would like, and have toyed with the idea of creating a dual headstay system to allow a second headsail to be hoisted inside one that is already flying during a sailchange. Dunno if I want to pay for that though.

Overall, its pretty much up to you to decide whether its worth it or not I guess. To me the money is better spent in other places.

Edited by - on

limey156
1st Mate

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89 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 20:17:15

Prospector, my foil on my furler has two slots for the sail edge to fit into. So I could use those to hoist dual sails like you mentioned for sail changes, correct? I could also just pretend it is a standard forestay and not furl my sails, slot them in and hoist them up and down for sail changes. Not a major ordeal. it would be identical to a hank on right?

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 20:37:23

The fast boats I've raced on have always used a foil. Not roller furling. Prospector,I really enjoyed your perspective.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2010 : 21:19:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 OK, I'm old school.

I have Hanks. I have no intention of swapping the sails I have out for furling... Overall, its pretty much up to you to decide whether its worth it or not I guess. To me the money is better spent in other places.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and that's why you can buy a Melges, an Island Packet, a Grand Banks, or anything in between.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2010 : 04:43:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by limey156
 Prospector, my foil on my furler has two slots for the sail edge to fit into. So I could use those to hoist dual sails like you mentioned for sail changes, correct? I could also just pretend it is a standard forestay and not furl my sails, slot them in and hoist them up and down for sail changes. Not a major ordeal. it would be identical to a hank on right?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm really not sure Limey. Did it come with a manual or anything? I have only done sail changes on 2 boats with furlers. One worked out really nicely. The other was hell warmed over.

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Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/23/2010 : 04:52:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 OK, I'm old school.

I have Hanks. I have no intention of swapping the sails I have out for furling... Overall, its pretty much up to you to decide whether its worth it or not I guess. To me the money is better spent in other places.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and that's why you can buy a Melges, an Island Packet, a Grand Banks, or anything in between.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or wine and roses for SWMBO so I can get a day out sailing instead of cutting the lawn...

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/23/2010 : 06:20:26

The Harken MkIV has dual slots so you can do sail changes on the fly. It also has a removable drum so you can have just the foil for racing.

http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/sccyspw1.eShowPage?catalog=409Z56LC7FV66&category=409Z56LC6PSTM

Edited by - on

pjeffarch
Navigator

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USA
135 Posts

Response Posted - 06/27/2010 : 09:50:14

Wow - all great insights...Thanks Prospector for providing a good in-depth 'other side of the coin' description. Still haven't decided what to do, but am leaning toward the furler, mainly because I'm lazy, don't race, love to cruise, and we're on a very small lake...so little time to change sails because it seems we're always on a lee shore! Thanks everyone for the tips, and the links to sail stores. I hope this helped others going through the same analysis.

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